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progesterone for heavy period bleeding?

by Annie
(Minnesota, US)

I am a 41 yo female living in northern US. I have always had heavy bleeding but since my first child via c-section at age 33, and then second c-section with second child at age 37, my periods have gotten very heavy. I flood heavy and bright red, with large clots. I can control it somewhat with 800mg of ibuprofen throughout the day, but if I miss a dose I am in misery and it is like a tap has been turned on. Very regular periods, 30 days, ever since teenage years. Some PMS, emotional, breast tenderness, but nothing too bad. If I dont take the ibuprofen during my period the pain in the vagina and birth canal area is very strong.

I would like to get this under control, as it is interferring with my life, and with intimacy with my partner. I wonder if progesterone would be a good option for me, but the explanation of estrogen dominance and increase of symptoms realy scare me. The thought of increased bleeding is not acceptable to me, I would probably have to go to the hospital as I wouldnt be able to leave the toilet...!

How would I take the cream in a situation like this, every day of my cycle, including period, or not? Or just the last 14 days before my period, if I read right? And how much?

I do take 2000-4000 iu of vit D but will increase from all the information on this site.

Thank you so much for any advice!

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Dec 29, 2011
 (my pool of thoughts ) Re: Progesterone for heavy period bleeding?
by: Kennesha Simons

Hello Annie, last year I was complaining to my doctor of my super heavy flow cycles that kept me home most of the time because within 30 minutes or an hour the super thick pads I was using were socked along with my clothing. I did some research and found that some women has fibroids and don’t even know they have it, so I asked my doctor to look into this. I too have 28-30 days cycle since the age of 9yrs old with bad cramps too. Once I had gotten an ultrasound they found I had two fibroids and the two I had was a submuscosal fibroids. Now there are quite a few types of fibroids see link: http://www.myomectomy.net/types_of_uterine_fibroids.htm. I had them removed and this changed my cycles from 7 long heavy flows to 3 day short normal flows. I am now super happy I had them check for it. I love this site as well. The information here is very informative.
Jan 02, 2012
 progesterone for heavy period bleeding?
by: Wray

Hi Annie The progesterone will control the heavy bleeding, it's evident you have excess oestrogen. MMP's are enzymes that break down protein. They play a role in the breakdown of endometrial tissues at the end of the menstrual cycle, see here If they are over active, as would be the case with excess oestrogen in the body, as oestrogen stimulates their production, the result is a pathological reaction. A high level of MMP's can lead to inflammation, spotting and/or excessive bleeding in the uterus. If a low level of progesterone is present, and a high level of oestrogen, the lining will continue to grow. With a high level of MMP's the lining will also continue to break down. Progesterone suppresses both MMP's, see here, and oestrogen. But sufficient must be used, the normal 20-40mg/day recommended by many will only make matters worse. I've found 400mg/day is needed to stop it. I've also found Oestrogen Dominance rarely occurs if this much is used. It's always best to make progesterone the dominant hormone as quickly as possible. Progesterone also stops the pain too, it's a potent anti-inflammatory. It's best to rub the cream over the painful area. Although it travels rapidly round the body, if used directly on the affected area it works far quicker. It's also evident from your other symptoms you have excess oestrogen, so I advise using the progesterone daily, through your period too, for about 2-3 months. Bear in mind progesterone can upset the cycle when first using it, making it either early or late. For info on how to regain your cycle, please see our page on How to use progesterone cream. If you opt for the 400mg/day, once the bleeding is under control, reduce the amount very slowly. By no more than 16mg/day, too quickly and the problem comes back. Stay on the reduced amount for a few days, before reducing again. Progesterone levels begin dropping from about age 35, as anovulatory cycles begin. These increase in frequency through Peri-menopause, until Menopause when the ovaries stop producing viable eggs. Continued below.
Jan 02, 2012
 progesterone for heavy period bleeding? Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Annie I'm very happy you've read the info on vitamin D, it's such an important nutrient. Please consider having blood tests done very 6 months to check the level. You live in Minnesota where the angle of the sun is too oblique to make any vitamin D in winter. You might like to see this excellent video too, see here. Take care Wray
Jan 02, 2012
 (my pool of thoughts ) Re: Progesterone for heavy period bleeding?
by: Wray

Hi Kennesha You are so right, it's something I forget to ask women to have checked. I'll try to remember in future! We do have a page on Fibroids. And thanks for your kind words. Take care Wray
Jan 12, 2012
 received Natpro, usage advice?
by: Annie

Thank you both for your answers. I will definitely look into the possibility of fibroids. I read that progesterone can actually slowly shrink fibroids, is that correct?

I just received my first shipment of Natpro and applied one teaspoon, 5ml, to my skin. If I do that twice daily, throughout my cycle, including during my period, is that right? That would be about 400mg per day? Does that put me on the right track? Should I continue doing that throughout my first period and see how I do?

Thank you for any advice!
Jan 17, 2012
 received Natpro, usage advice?
by: Wray

Hi Annie 10ml will give you 330mg/day progesterone, there are 33.3mg/ml. You might find this sufficient, if not you will have to increase it. 400mg/day is 12ml. I would hope it is enough, anything to keep the cost down! And yes continue doing it through you period too. I've generally found it takes 2-3 months using it daily to get things under control, but who knows 1 month might be fine for you. Please be on the watch for any oestrogen dominance, it can come out of the blue. If it should, please increase the amount you're using. But when you begin decreasing don't forget to do it slowly, no more than 16mg each time. This too can cause adverse symptoms to occur if done too fast. Play it by ear, there are always ups and downs initially. Fibroids can be helped by progesterone. Oestrogen exacerbates them, as it's an inflammatory hormone, not only that but it's a mitogen too, so increases their size. They are caused by oxidative stress, so large amounts of antioxidants are needed to reverse them, not just progesterone. Take care Wray
Feb 22, 2012
 some success, but questions about weird period
by: Annie

Thank you, Wray for your replies to my earlier questions. I now have a few more.

I started Natpro at a bit more than two teaspoons a day, ten days before my period before last, six weeks ago. The period after that was late by about four days. That period was still quite heavy but much better than usual, and with less to no pain. I then continued the cream, at about the same amount, throughout the next cycle. Feeling good, I can tell when I need more cream as I get winded. I did, and still do have sore and swollen breasts, they look and feel a little bit as in the beginning stages of pregnancy, though I dont mind that as they were quite deflated after years of breast feeding..;) I did read your comments about iodine and do feel it is better when I paint on tincture of iodine regularly. Putting on more cream on the breasts does nothing for the soreness.

Then we had a family vacation coming up, last weekend. It was a few days too early for my period so I didnt worry about bringing period supplies as I am always so regular. I was stressing quite a bit about the traveling though, as I was very breathless, heart pounding and couldnt sleep the night before travel, and had to use quite a bit of cream to calm it down. Travel day was a bit crazy, and lo and behold, the next day my period started, about five days early. dang it, but It was not bad! I was using the cream throughout the day, and had basically a normal period, no pain, normal bleeding. Very pleased!

But now we are back home and it seems my period is picking up steam instead of slowing down. I am starting to bleed bright red again, with some clots, and feel a bit cheated out of this great, easy period I was having. I am upping my cream, and trying to take it often throughout the day, but how much should I up? Should I just keep taking more, as in three or four or more teaspoons a day, until it stops? Then what, do I stay at that high of a dose until next period, or do I go back to normal dose for me, about two and a half a day?

Thank you for any insight!
Feb 23, 2012
 some success, but questions about weird period
by: Wray

Hi Annie Well I'm so delighted it's helped you so soon! And using that high amount I see you don't mention any oestrogen dominance rearing it's ugly head. It's evident you are short of iodine too, I'm pleased that's helping. It's very interesting about stressing out before the vacation. That would drop progesterone levels, and you would get your period, albeit early. Far too much adrenaline coursing through your veins. Although progesterone does inhibit it, it appears far more would have been needed to keep levels high enough. Even then it might not have worked. Progesterone is vital for respiration, it relaxes the airways and increases lung volume. But the adrenaline put paid to that! Stress does play havoc with us. I wish we had a barometer that could tell us….'stressing too much, do something'! Your period is one sign, the stress before leaving, of travelling there and back again, the unpacking and getting back to 'normal', all these cause stress. Try using the 3tsp, this will give you 500mg/day, I really don't think you'll need more, but who knows. Certainly if this doesn't help do increase it. Then when it stops decrease very slowly, I usually say by no more than 16mg, which is 1/2ml of cream, although you could try 1ml, which is 1/5th of a tsp. Stay on each reduction a few days to stabilise before reducing further, until you reach the amount which suits you. Please let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Feb 29, 2012
 increased dose substantially, still spotting?
by: Annie

Thank you Wray for all your help!

I have a few more questions, quickly now before bedtime!
As I stated earlier, my bleeding started almost a week early, wtih mostly brown bleeding, but enough of it to be considered a normal period. It then got heavier, closer to the time I normslly would have started my period, with bright red, thin bleeding, with clots. No cramps or pains of any sort though. No fun, all of this non stop bleeding, got a bit tired of it, and after about nine days of bleeding upped the natpro dose substantially. Took two teaspoons before bed time, two more next day at noon, and again two at bedtime, and some more in between. The bleeding and spotting stopped, yay. But now I wasnt sure if I should continue this high dose, or if I should go back to a more normal dose, 500 mg maybe.. the spotting stopped for several days, but starts back up again, and now I am spotting brown with some clots again. I have never, ever spotted in my life before, so this is a bit annoying.

I am wondering what the heck am I doing to myself, and what do I do now? continue with 6, 7, or more teaspoons or go down in dose and deal with the spotting. I have no other issues or symptoms, taking iodine my breast tenderness is gone, and feel very good over all. My only symptom if I am not on schedule with the progesterone cream is windedness and tightness in the chest, as I mentioned before.

Also wanted to mention that I read on your site about DIM and purchased Lorna Vanderhaege's Estrosense, hoping to help "get rid of" excess estrogen, but have only been taking it for a few days. The spotting however started before I started the supplement, though now it is a bit heavier.

Any thoughts?
Mar 02, 2012
 increased dose substantially, still spotting?
by: Wray

Hi Annie Yes, don't go on vacation! Of course you must take one, but it has set you back. I'm pleased the pain and cramps are gone, but not that the bleeding is back full force it seems. That was a high amount you used, about 1000mg/day. We have two other women I know of who have gone that high to stop symptoms, neither had heavy bleeding. I take it the bleeding has stopped, but you now have spotting? Evidently the MMP's are still at work, please could you get some NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), this counters the inflammatory effect of the MMP's, see here. I suggest taking 2000mg/day, this is the amount I take every day as it's such a beneficial amino acid. I take it in powder form, but it does have a strong sulphur smell and is very, very sour. If you have a sensitive stomach, start with a low dose and build up. I'm not sure how much progesterone you're using now, 1000mg or 500mg/day? If on the 1000mg/day you could try reducing very slowly, but please watch for an increase in bleeding. If this should occur go back to the amount you were using and stay on that a few days before reducing further. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Mar 02, 2012
 increased dose substantially, still spotting?
by: Wray

Hi Annie It was only after I had posted my reply, that I realise I hadn't answered the bit about the DIM. It doesn't actually get rid of oestrogen. Oestrogen is broken down into 2 principle metabolites, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1) and 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1). 16alpha-OHE1 is regarded as a potent oestrogen, whereas 2-OHE1 is a weaker oestrogen. In some studies DIM increased levels of 2-OHE1, by doing so it also increases the ratio of 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1. This increased ratio is associated with a lower risk for breast cancer in some studies, not in others, see here, here, here here. Calcium D-glucarate is possibly a better thing to take, or both. Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids, aromatic and heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, various nitrosamines, drugs, fungi etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, see here, here, here and here. Incidentally this enzyme is produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Take care Wray
Mar 02, 2012
 thank you!
by: Annie

thanks for your replies to my questions. Yes, I am still bleeding, so will get the cysteine asap. Thank you for the recommendation.

I am unsure of how much cream I am using now.. I was thinking yesterday that I will go back to using 3-4 teaspoons and muddle through this time as it seems I otherwise will go through my 20 pack at an alarming speed, and I wasn't seeing a stop of the bleeding with the higher amount anyway. thought maybe the higher amount so suddenly got the estrogen receptors going again.. or something like that..

will also look at your information about the DIM, too early in the morning right now for such tech speak, and the kids are howling for breakfast!

Thanks again for taking the time to so thoughtfully answer all my questions as I figure this puzzle out.
Mar 02, 2012
 thank you!
by: Wray

Hi Annie I do hope the cysteine works, please give it some time. Any stress drops progesterone levels, so it's a question of getting back on track again. You were doing so well too. How much vitamin D are you taking now, you said you would increase it. And please have a test done, many women have found once their level was high enough, the symptoms went. And have you been checked for fibroids, as Kennesha suggested? Interestingly a new study has found vitamin D shrinks them. It's the same story over and over, combining the two seems to work the best. This was discovered in studies on Traumatic Brain Injury victims. Please let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Mar 05, 2012
 quick update
by: Annie

Wray, here is an update. I started on the NAC Friday, today is Monday. I saw an immediate and drastic decrease in bleeding/spotting, and only spotted a very tiny bit over the weekend. Today I have not spotted at all! First day in over two weeks with no bleeding or spotting.I have not stayed on the higher amount of progesterone cream, as it just didnt seem to help the bleeding - there wasnt a correlation between the spotting and the cream, other than stopping the actual period that didnt want to end. I am now taking about 400-500 mg per day and feel good, especially since the spotting has been helped with the cysteine!

I was taking between 8000 and 10000 ius of Vit D as per your advice, but ran out. have now started again and am increasing to up to 14000 for a while, as there is no way I am getting any from the sun, as there is no sun here right now! Also continuing the estrosense, at least until the bottle is done. it also contains calcium d glucarate, indole 3 carbinol in addition to the DIM. It also contains sulphoraphane, turmeric, milk thistle, and Lycopene. Should I continue this you think?

Thank you for the recommendation to use Cysteine, it helped so quickly!

Also, do you think I am good with my progesterone cream at my current levels, 400-500 mg? continue this for the foreseeable future until everything settles, see how my next period goes? how about nutritional support otherwise, you have been so incredibly spot on with your recs, wonder if you have any other recommendations for me?

And no, I havent been checked for fibroids, though if I continue having bleeding and spotting issues, I will go in to have it checked out. I tend to stay away from doctors unless very urgent, but of course, if I cant get this figured out I will investigate further. Of course, the prolonged bleeding and spotting started after I started the progesterone cream and has never occurred before. I always bleed heavy, but only for four to five days. obviously I was estrogen dom, but now my body is balancing out and I would expect some issues while that happens, but hope to not see sixteen full days of bleeding or spotting again!

Thank you again for all your help. You are truly a remarkable resource!
Mar 06, 2012
 quick update
by: Wray

Hi Annie Well you have brought tears to my eyes! Bless you for getting the NAC and trying it too, sometimes I feel like a nut case. As I suggest things others don't, or in amounts far higher. I love the patterns I find, and how it all fits like a jigsaw, once you find the pieces! The hardest part for me is persuading people to try my ideas, I can't thank you enough for doing so. Please stay on that amount of progesterone for now, certainly until your next period, that will be interesting to hear about. Only when you feel stable should you begin reducing, and do this slowly too, about 16mg or 1/2ml of cream per reduction. Stay on this amount for a few days, before reducing further. Then once you feel up to it you could go back to following your cycle. And please continue with the NAC, I don't know how much you're taking, but it seemed to do the trick. As I said to you I take it every day, it's one of the most important aminos. In fact one study asks if ageing isn't a NAC deficiency, see here and here. You obviously had oxidative stress, this leads to inflammation and many, many of our modern 'diseases'. All due to a lack of antioxidants, none of us now can avoid all the pollution. No amount of good organic food can help, we need extra antioxidants. In particular vitamin D, so I'm very happy you've increased the amount, but please, please have a test done. It's very safe, toxicity is not reached until blood levels get to 200ng/ml, see here, but it's pointless taking too much. Estrosense is very good, I've looked at the ingredients before, and for a change, they have a good amount of all the right things. So many have a token amount, and it's just a waste of time. I suggest you stay on it till you feel well again. Since I wrote my last reply, I've found 2 studies which have found vitamin D shrinks fibroids, see here and here. So if you have them, you soon won't! You're using the progesterone which also helps, the two combined seems to work wonders on most things. Even on 'menopausal lips', I find this such a good page, Lynne did give me a laugh, see here. Continued below.
Mar 06, 2012
 quick update
by: Wray

Hi Annie And other recommendations, well you could look at our page on Nutrition. There are three eating options which are all good, I use the Paleo Diet, Dr Cordain has a great deal of experience on how damaging food can be, and how healing too. I'm not into selling, you've probably noticed over 50% of the people who ask questions here use another cream. But we do make a complex which I put together, principally because I exhausted myself a few years back. Overdid things as many of us do! I take it daily now, keeps me going all day, it contains all the most powerful antioxidants. It does not taste very good, as there are no fillers, flavourants, preservatives, sweeteners etc. I take it in a small amount of fruit juice. You can look at the info on this page here. It helps Insulin Resistance which so any of us have. Please hang in there with what you're doing, all these natural healing methods take time, and there can be ups and downs too. And please avoid too much stress, this really sets you back, as it does all of us. It causes a cascade of inflammatory cytokines to be produced. Take care Wray
Mar 27, 2012
 great update
by: Annie

Hello Wray, and a big thank you for taking the time to help me through this.

I have just finished a normal period, which started right on time and ended uneventfully in four days. Yay! No pains in the vaginal area, nor any cramps, other than a couple of hours of a heavy feeling in the uterus. But that was it! Normal bleeding, some bright red and thin for a few hours to half a day, but nothing that ever leaked through a super tampon, compared to the dinosaur sized tampons I had to use before. No spotting or bleeding after the period was done, though I noticed some slight pink spotting after intimacy with my husband the day after the period ended. But nothing that actually broke through. And no mood swings at all, just some slight breast tenderness for a few days before the period started.

I am now using one tsp Natpro and one in the evening, with some additional squirts throughout the day, maybe another half or three quarters tsp. I am also using the NAC you recommended, at about 2000 a day, thank you so much for that recommendation as I really feel that helped push things over the line into healing and proper hormone levels. I am also still taking the Estrosense.

I also ordered right away after your post, your Energy Formula and love it. The 2000 NAC I take every day includes what I get from that. I take 3-4 tsp a day in some orange juice, no issues with the taste, and I really feel a great boost from it! My husband, who deals with a lot of stress at work, is also taking it now. By the way, can progesterone be used for men in stressful situations? I know you have a page for men about progesterone, but a very quick skim through a while back didnt tell me if it can be used just to get through simple work related stress.

I also wonder, if you don't mind me asking a question about another species, my mare has pretty strong spring heats (ovulation) and raspberry leaf was recommended for that. I found a supplement for her with raspberry leaf, magnesium and taurine, and she seems to have responded well to that. Any thoughts on whether raspberry leaf has any merit, or if it is just the taurine and mag that is helping?

So, in closing, thank you again! To think that it took three cycles of dedicated work to fix my horrible periods in a natural way is just mind boggling to me. Years of tough periods, and I can already feel a relief that with your help I dont have to go there again.

Do you think I can start using the Natpro only for the last fourteen days of my cycle now, or stick to my every day routine? I have no other signs of estrogen dom, such as nightsweats or mood swings. Or can I cut down on the cream in the beginning phases of the cycle at least, upping for the last fourteen days to follow my cycle?

Thank you so much for your knowledge and expertise, even in the face of established dogma, and for taking the time to help others.
Mar 31, 2012
 great update
by: Wray

Hi Annie Bless you for this news!! I'm just so delighted, so excited about it. But bless you above all for trusting me and following my suggestions. It's the established dogma, as you mention, which I find the hardest to get through. In fact in desperation I quickly did a page recently on Progesterone Misconceptions! It seems you're now using about 400-450mg/day progesterone, and have been on it for about two and half months. As things have settled down remarkably quickly, I think you should start reducing it. I'd rather you did this first, than suddenly dropping from that large amount down to nothing when you start bleeding. You might find it's fine, but I feel it could be a bit of a shock to the system! I usually suggest about 16mg progesterone or 1/2ml of cream each reduction, you might find 1ml is fine. Please stay on each reduction for a couple of days, before reducing further. This is just to stabilise, and watch for the return of symptoms. By your next period you should have reduced it enough to be able to stop when you bleed. Again watch for the return of symptoms, I don't want you to have any setbacks. Please keep a look out for a dip in mood etc during the luteal phase, when oestrogen rises again. I'm so delighted that the NAC helped you, it's a remarkable nutrient. I'm sure getting your vitamin D levels up helped too, don't forget to have a test done as you're taking a large amount. And the Energy formula, I can't believe you love it, most find it disgusting! Although taken in juice it does mask the flavour. So happy it's helped you, it does work as I've found myself. Thank you for trying it, and your husband too. Stress depletes all the nutrients, nothing that good food can do either, there simply isn't enough in it to cope. And yes to the progesterone and stress, see here, here, here, here and here. In fact it helps men in the same way it helps women. It activates the GABA receptor sites, GABA is one of the most calming amino acids, taurine and glycine another two, also in the energy formula. Continued below.
Mar 31, 2012
 great update Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Annie I've found GABA difficult to use, so prefer to stick with the progesterone. We have one man using 400-600mg/day for stress! I would suggest he takes tyrosine, there is some in the energy formula, but possibly not enough. Although a non-essential amino acid, it's is one of the most important. It's the precursor to the neurotransmitter dopamine, and the stress hormones adrenaline and noradrenaline. It's also the precursor to the two thyroid hormones T3 (triiodothyronine) and T4 (thyroxine), plus melanin, the pigment found in hair and skin. It's part of the enkephalin peptide involved in regulating and reducing pain, and increasing pleasure. Lack of protein and stress lower tyrosine levels, with a subsequent reduction in dopamine. A drop in dopamine increases levels of prolactin, the hormone of lactogenesis, but also an inflammatory hormone. Dopamine is essential for a normal sexual response, essential for motivation and vitality, levels rise when rewarded. Increased prolactin causes a drop in dopamine with a subsequent drop in libido and vitality. Tyrosine is essential for any stressful situation, cold, fatigue, emotional trauma, prolonged work, sleep deprivation, it improves memory, cognition and physical performance. Please make sure he's taking enough vitamin D too. As the rate limiting step in dopamine synthesis is the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase. Insufficient levels of vitamin D inhibit tyrosine hydroxylase, resulting in a disturbance in the dopamine pathway. And now to your horse. How lovely you're treating her with natural things too. I have a paper I can't give you as I subscribe to the journal, but it says this about raspberry…….."Orally, red raspberry leaf is used for GI tract disorders, upper and lower respiratory tract disorders, cardiovascular system disorders, influenza, fever, diabetes, vitamin deficiency, as a diaphoretic or diuretic, for stimulating bile production, "purification of skin and blood", diarrhea, dysmenorrhea, menorrhagia, morning sickness associated with pregnancy, preventing miscarriage, and facilitating labor and delivery." Further info is…. "When used in humans, red raspberry leaf might have either stimulatory or spasmolytic effects. There is some evidence that these effects might be dose and tissue dependent. For example, in low doses red raspberry leaf might cause more contraction, while higher doses might have spasmolytic effects and decrease contraction. Also, red raspberry might decrease contraction of tonic tissues and increase contraction of relaxed tissues. Red raspberry leaf might also have some estrogenic effects. In an animal model, red raspberry leaf seems to increase serum ceruloplasmin oxidase activity, which is a measure of estrogenic activity in the liver." So your guess is as good as mine when it comes to your horse! It could be the Mg and taurine, as both these are very calming. Continued below.
Mar 31, 2012
 great update Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Annie Interestingly, years ago I met a vet who looked after race horses, who used progesterone injections to calm them down! A friend of mine used it on her dog who had epilepsy. She found she needed far less medication to control the seizures. It you feel like trying it on your horse, look for a less hairy part. Although progesterone is absorbed well by the hair follicles, see here, some will get left on the hair itself which would be wasted. The only problem is you will probably find you need quite a lot, going by the size of the animal, your pocket book might object! Do let me know how all the experiments go, you, your husband and the horse! Take care Wray
Apr 11, 2012
 more bleeding..
by: Annie

thank you so much for your replies, I always find so much information in your answers.

now a quick question - just a couple of days after writing my post abiut my perfect last cycle, I started bleeding again.. We were again traveling, this time domestically so not at all as stressful, but still hectic to get packed and onto the plane with kids and tons of luggage. I wasn't as good about my middle of the day progesterone squirts, just doing a tsp in the morning and one in the evening, but it was so close after my last period, nine days into my cycle, I felt as if I had a bit of leeway.

I then started spotting, on the twelfth day of my cycle, which turned into bleeding. I now have to use tampons, and am bleeding bright red with some clots, though not as heavy as a regular period. I have increased the progesterone quite dramatically, like I did when this happened two cycles ago, but so far it hasn't changed the bleeding at all. I have now been bleeding for over one week.

I am still taking about 2000- 2500 NAC, and using the energy formula, though haven't been quite as good about that since we were on holiday, and I was running low and it was out of stock. (havent checked to see if it is back in stock.)

I did get my second batch of twenty tubes yesterday, and am now using a lot of cream throughout the day to see if it makes a difference. Any other ideas for me? I feel as if I want to get off this train.. the progesterone has made me so dang sensitive to any changes.. stress, even minor stress of traveling.. missing a small dose of progesterone.. a drop of the hat and I start bleeding again and it won't stop. Will I always be this sensitive while using the cream? I am not sure I am up for that.. though the heavy, painful periods were no fun either..!

Thank you again!
Apr 13, 2012
 it stopped..
by: Annie

a quick update to say that after drastically upping the natpro cream and using it very often during the day, the bleeding has diminished throughout the day today and now, knock on wood, seems to have stopped! I am using quite a bit of cream.

I am still curious if you have any thoughts on if my extreme, to me at least, sensitivity to any stress and fluctuations of progesterone will continue or should it get better with time and usage of the cream?

And in the future, if I notice spotting, I should probably go in very heavy right away on the cream to prevent it from becoming bleeding?
Apr 14, 2012
 more bleeding..
by: Wray

Hi Annie Oh dear you are sensitive to stress, I've actually never come across anyone like you before. Except for women in very early pregnancy, they go on holiday and all too often have a miscarriage. I don't think any of us realise how stressful travel actually is, even if for fun. So your progesterone did drop, which of course did cause the early bleeding. Looking back, you only started the NAC about 5 weeks ago, and the higher progesterone about 3 months ago. It can take time to settle down, particularly getting back to a regular cycle. Stress causes a cascade of inflammatory cytokines to be produced, things like TNF-alpha, natural killer cells, IL-2, IL-6, the MMPs and more. It's evident from the heavy, painful periods you used to have, that these were always present in higher amounts than normal. The prostaglandins too, these cause the painful periods. At least the heavy bleeding and pain have stopped, it's now a question of regulating the cycle. I can't ask you to stop travelling, particularly by plane, or to avoid stress, who can now. But please try to keep up the regular applications of progesterone during the day, these obviously help you greatly. And to use more if you should go into t stressful time. You could try increasing the NAC, and see if that helps. I know you're taking lots of vitamin D, have you had time to have a test done yet? Stress also drops levels of this, another powerful anti-inflammatory. One thing you could check on are fibroids, as Kennesha said earlier these also cause heavy bleeding. You could be in the early stages of peri-menopause too, symptoms start 5-10 years before menopause. Mine began when I was about 40, but I only went into menopause at 51, which is also the average age for this. Maybe you could find out from your mother when she went into menopause, as that's a good indication when you will. I wish I could offer more help, but it seems to me to be just a question of time now. Take care Wray
Apr 16, 2012
 it stopped..
by: Wray

Hi Annie I see our replies have become crossed, but I'm delighted you've managed to stop the bleeding. I suggested increasing the NAC, which you could also try, certainly a cheaper option. I would hope with time you do become less sensitive to the ups and downs. Your uterus has been inflamed for years with the heavy bleeding and pain you used to have. This has to be addressed before any healing can take place. Because of your sensitivity, please try to keep up the additional applications, ie during the day, particularly when travelling or any other stressful situation. And if you know you're going to have any stress, increase the NAC and progesterone prior to it. Please keep in touch, as I'm also learning through your experience! Take care Wray
Apr 17, 2012
 still bleeding..
by: Annie

Thank you Wray for your thoughts.

I am still bleeding, however. It can diminish sometimes, and has a few times decreased to just slight spotting. But I am still bleeding, sometimes flooding with bright red bleeding and clots. It is very discouraging..

I have increased one the cream to very high amounts, and have increased the cysteine as well, to about 4000. I am not sure how much cream I am using, I try to take it throughout the day. Nothing seems to take a bite out of the bleeding..

I am going to call for a doctor's appointment, though I wonder how supportive they will be of using progesterone in these amounts.

I am trying Wobenzym, thinking it may help if I do have fibroids, and thought I noticed an immediate decrease in bleeding. But that was just temporary and it is back in full force... I am just not a happy camper right now..!
Apr 18, 2012
 still bleeding..
by: Wray

Hi Annie I'm so dismayed you've had this set back, and in spite of increasing the progesterone and NAC too. I don't know what else to suggest, other than having a check for fibroids. Your vitamin D should be very high too, from the amounts you're using. Let me know the outcome of the doctors visit, I also wonder about his reaction to the progesterone! Out of interest vitamin D does reduce fibroid volume, see here, here, here and here. Take care Wray
Apr 21, 2012
 doing much better
by: Annie

Hi Wray, wanted to update you on how things have progressed. I ended up not making a doc appointment.. I instead took a good look at what pattern I was seeing both from the past bleeding event and this one. I felt both times that I got no response from my body from increasing the progesterone to even very high levels. And this time I got no response to the NAC either, whereas last time I got such an immediate response. I have been using a different brand of NAC, and decided to go back to my old brand, which was a lower dose with the addition of selenium and molybdenum. My current brand was a higher dose of NAC with a small amount of calcium added. I also dropped back from my high dose of progesterone to my regular dose. I didnt feel great on the higher dose anyway, not bad just not as good. And it seem to have zero impact on the bleeding. I also increased some other supplements I was using, as well as V Coconut oil.

The response was immediate, I stopped flooding and bleeding, still had some spotting here and there but about eighty percent better. I now, about four days into my new program, am about ninety percent without bleeding, just some occasional spotting. I believe changing brands of NAC made the difference. I dont know if the difference is type or quality of Cysteine or the selenium.. But the response in my body was instant! Cool uh?!

It now feels as if the progesterone I am using can make difference as I can tell on my bleeding if I havent kept up applications, though I am back on my normal usage, about three tsp a day. The NAC I use throughout the day, probably about double of what I used last time, and I will lower that as soon as I am stable.

So thanks again for your support and knowledge, it is vital to have your input as well as my deciphering what is happening in my own body to figure this stuff out!
Apr 23, 2012
 doing much better
by: Wray

Hi Annie Bless you for telling me this! I was beginning to wonder what could possibly have gone wrong. I'd like to thank you too for looking at your pattern, it's impossible for me to know. I told one woman I felt like I was walking through a maze blindfolded! There are far too many variables, it's so much trial and error. I'm delighted you've reduced the progesterone too, I see no point in using more than needed. Even though it helped so much in the beginning. I'm also happy you thought of going back to the old NAC. I have no papers on it, but calcium is an excitatory mineral, whether it could increase bleeding I don't know. It is involved in uterine contractions. Well I've just found this rather odd study, see here. But no more. You are taking a high dose vitamin D, have you had your levels checked yet? It does draw calcium into the system, please have a test done. Progesterone does inhibit calcium's excitatory effect. And selenium is a potent antioxidant too. No idea if the coconut oil affected the bleeding, but it's such a beneficial oil, I use it too. Thanks for your patience and long suffering acceptance of my suggestions! Please keep in touch. Take care Wray
Aug 24, 2012
 back again!
by: Annie

Hi Wray, an update from me. I have been feelin very well, still on your cream, around 2.5 tsp/day. I have not seen a cycle yet, have not tried to establish one. Before starting the cream always as clockwork, 31 days, but have not felt stabilized with the cream yet. I have some interesting breakthroughs to share with you.

I have not had a real period while on the cream, but sometimes I start spotting and nothing stops. I suspect that a dip in progesterone starts the spotting (or period - some similarities, there is no real period bleeding nor does it happen within the thirty day cycle, but maybe those are periods that wont end) no amount of cream influences bleeding or spotting once it starts. Once I was able to dramatically increase prog, 1000 mg for a day, but as a rule more/less prog makes no difference.

you recd NAC. it worked great. You said you must have some oxidative, inflammatory reaction happening. Then I started spotting again, about a month later, maybe a bit of a pattern. NAC did not work as well, I spotted for about three weeks until it stopped for over a month. Next time this happened I spotted for over two weeks with some bleeding here and there, but mostly brown stringy spotting.

Again I went back and thought about how to deal with this. Progesterone in whatever amount had zero influence on spotting, so I thought about NAC, but increasing that didnt put a dent into the whole thing either. I then thought about what you said about oxidative inflammatory stress. I sure dont feel oxidative or inflammatory or stressed, I feel great. But I went to the Co-op and got whatever they first pointed at when asked about antioxidants - this is what I got, and I hope it is okay to mention brands. Within twelve hours I had my first few spot free hours in three weeks, and it kept getting better, within two days I was completely spotting free. halleluia, and my marriage should stay intact.

I used http://www.enzymedica.com/products/Defenze
and http://www.newchapter.com/zyflamend/zyflamend-breast
and http://www.nutraceutical.com/search/view_product.cfm?product_index=2342209 as well as the NAC. At first higher amounts than specified, throughout the day. spotting decreased, I cut back. plan to continue taking all three, why mess with a good thing.

wanted to update you and see if you had any additional insight. do you think it is wise of me to try to start a cycle of progesterone cream, or continue 2.5- 3 a day for now? I know I am still susceptible to dips in prog as I notice breast tenderness and size increase if too low, or stress, then the spotting starts. I cant break the pattern with more cream, it is as if my body is on its own path at that point.

Thank you for all you do, I continue to be a loyal, heavy user of your cream. I went through a twenty pack, again, in 2.5 mths trying to figure this out. But I feel good, energetic, no weight gain or loss, I am 5'5, 120lbs. sticking to 2.5/day since increasing doesnt seem to matter. Hugs!
Aug 26, 2012
 back again!
by: Wray

Hi Annie It's so good to hear from you again! And bless you for experimenting, there's only so much I can advise on. But I'm so delighted the experimenting has worked, I'm such believer in the antioxidants, even if one isn't feeling 'oxidative'! We have no idea of what is happening inside, but it's evident from the fact you're feeling better, that things are working out. I've taken a look at the complexes you tried, nothing wrong in giving the links either, as it only assists others in looking for a solution, I always appreciate it too. The first gives good enzymes which some people have found helped. I doubt the ALA is helping much as the dose is rather low, we use 100mg/dose in our complexes. And I'm surprised they say the glutathione rises in people who take it. Glutathione is a try-peptide, a tiny 'protein' molecule and like all proteins it gets broken down in the gut to it's amino acids. Which comprise three, NAC (the rate limiting amino), glutamine and glycine. We put all three of these in our complexes to make sure there's enough for glutathione manufacture. Interestingly both Progesterone and Vitamin D raise levels of glutathione and SOD too, which they also have. The second one has some excellent ingredients, none of which I would have suggested for Breast Tenderness! But as they are antioxidants I see no reason why they shouldn't help. And the last is astaxanthin, which is fast becoming a favourite antioxidant amongst therapists. You might like to see some papers on it, here, here and here. And do I think you should start cycling again?! Well all I can say is try it, you'll soon know if it's not a good thing. I'm not sure how long you've been spot free, if for some time, then try when your next 'spotting' period starts. Just keep a watch for adverse symptoms, including continual bleeding. But as you now have a handle on that aspect, I don't think it's going to be of any concern. So if your period continues for too long, start the progesterone again, increase the NAC and the other complexes. Do let me know how you get on, as I so appreciate feedback. Hugs to you too! Take care Wray
Aug 27, 2012
 Heavy bleeding? vitamin D and NAC
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

What brand of vitamin D do you use or recommend? I ordered this brand and dose on-line Solgar, Natural Vitamin D3, 10,000 IU, 120 Softgels. I have not received it yet to try it. Was this a good choice or should I choose a different brand? I don't go outside much and when I do I am not in the direct sun if I can help it. I use a sunscreen. I have melasma (pregnancy mask) so I can't be in the sun or it will get worse. I also suffer from SAD (seasonal affective disorder)in the winter time despite living in Northern CA.

I am 53 yrs old and suffering from peri-menopausal symptoms, one being a very heavy and almost constant period or spotting. I have to wear a tampon everyday. I asked my mother when she went into menopause but she can't remember. I just hope I don't go all the way until 60 yrs old as some have. I could not stand to wait that long before finally stopping my weird periods.

I will mention that I went to the doctor and I don't have fibroids. My doctor told me it was a hormonal problem. I don't have a regular period cycle or length of cycle. I can bleed super heavy for 7 days or 15 days. I will always either bleed lightly in between the heavy bleeding. I don't know if this is called spotting. But the fact is I am constantly bleeding either heavy or light. I can also bleed heavy one day then light then next then heavy the third day and so on. I guess you could say I have erratic heavy bleeding sometimes then other times the heavy bleeding can be straight for several days to weeks. Very weird.

I have hot flashes and other peri-menopausal symptoms too. But my main problem that is interfering with my life is the bleeding. My goal at my age is to not even have a period. Although, even a regular and normal flow would be better than what I am going through right now. I have had this bleeding problem for about 4 or 5 years but I am just guessing, it could be longer.

You had recommended I take 400mg/day of progesterone cream. You also recommended that I take 200 mg/day of NAC. I read that you recommended that Annie(from Minnesota)take between 8000 and 10,000 IU's/day of Vitamin D. Annie said she took 14,000 IU's. You mentioned
Calcium D glucarate, is that the same as any vitamin D you see at the store?

So I would like a recommendation as to what exact brand and how much of the vitamin D and the NAC I should take. You hear about so many vitamins and supplements that are not processed well or are missing other ingredients needed for your body to absorb these things. There ore thousands and thousands of products and brands out there. I have read most of your forums and it all makes so much sense to me and I have come to really trust you and your recommendations.

I will also take any other suggestions that you have for me concerning my problem. Oh, one other thing, how much of the progesterone cream do you recommend I purchase to start?

Thank you,
Susie M
Aug 30, 2012
 Heavy bleeding? vitamin D and NAC
by: Wray

Hi Susie The brand you've ordered is very good, but I've given you the link to one Dr Cannel recommends. Melasma is caused by excess oestrogen stimulating melanocytes, these make melanin, the pigmentation in all skin types, see here and here. It's often a sign of adrenal stress too. Progesterone can resolve the problem, as it suppresses the excess oestrogen and it takes the strain off the adrenals. These make progesterone before they can convert it into cortisol, one of our stress hormones. Stress drops progesterone levels, thereby allowing oestrogen to dominate. So I would hope the progesterone helps you, use it on your face too, I do morning and evening. SAD is caused by a lack of vitamin D, as you've guessed, so supplementing with it should help enormously. Progesterone and Vitamin D work synergistically, so you should find the combo of even greater benefit than one alone. Besides, a lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. I have given you advice on the constant bleeding, so you will need about 400mg/day. The Hot Flushes too. I see you've read about the NAC, but it needs to be at least 2000mg/day, not 200mg/day. It does help greatly, like progesterone the amount does have to be adjusted to suit. Minnesota is further north than where you live, so the sun's angle is very oblique in winter, less so in summer. She, if I recall correctly, had a test done, and found her level very low, hence the high dose of vitamin D she was taking. Please consider having one, as it makes it easier to judge how much to take to get the level up high quickly. Calcium D glucarate is very different to vitamin D, there's none in it. It helps to reduce oestrogen levels. Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids, aromatic and heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, various nitrosamines, drugs, fungi etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. Continued below.
Aug 30, 2012
 Heavy bleeding? vitamin D and NAC part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, see here, here, here and here. Incidentally this enzyme is produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Silymarin from milk thistle also inhibits beta-glucuronidase, plus it helps the liver detox. I usually recommend LEF for any supplements, they really know what they're doing and have excellent advice too. I can't tell you how much to buy, it's up to your pocket! But I have given you the info about the 30% discount if you decide to buy that much. Thanks for considering the Natpro. I've done as you suggested, and pasted this on your other page. Take care Wray
Jan 06, 2013
 Progesterone, bleeding and cyst
by: Anonymous

Dear wray,

Quite a few months ago I wrote to you because I had an ovarian cyst and bleeding.

You recommended at that time that I take a high dosage of natpro to control the symptoms. The natpro made me worse.

I spoke to a leaving master herbalist who really knows his business, ore than any md and he told me to quit the progesterone immediately because it was acting like a sledge hammer to my system. I am 59 years old.

I then took black walnut extract like he suggested to get rid of a yeast overgrowth problem he felt I had and the ovarian cyst.

For the las 2 weeks I have been living a night mare with the cyst fragments coming out in large and small chunks, pain and bleeding. He said the bleeding will stop once the fragments are totally out but by now I have sort of given up.

What is your opinion on all of this.

Anon
Jan 07, 2013
 Progesterone, bleeding and cyst
by: Wray

Hi there It would help me so much if I knew how much you were using. And how long you used it for, as it can take time to rectify the problem. It was evident you had Oestrogen Dominance from using the progesterone, which would make you feel worse. This indicates your oestrogen level is very high. And did you tell me your age previously? Cysts can occur in menopausal women, but it's not a frequent occurrence. I normally recommend 400mg/day for heavy bleeding. Plus 2000mg/day NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), 2000mg/day taurine and at least 5000iu per day vitamin D. Did I ask you to have a vitamin D test done, if not please do so. The NAC inhibits the MMPs which cause the lining to break down, for more info see our page on Menstruation. Taurine is low in any dysfunctional uterine bleeding, see here. And vitamin D is a potent anti-inflammatory. Although a cyst can grow to the size of an orange, it seems highly unlikely to me that the 'cyst fragments coming out in large and small chunks' are in fact from a cyst. It appears it could be from Fibroids, and that the chunks are clots, particularly as it's gone on for 2 weeks. Even if the size of an orange, the fragments would have been small. Is the pain coming from only one side, i.e. from one ovary? And are you sure it's a cyst? Have they done an ovarian scan? I really suggest you have a scan done of your uterus, to make sure it's not fibroids. If it is, in all probability your vitamin D is low, see here, here, here and here. We do have a page on Ovarian Cysts you could look through. And progesterone a sledge hammer? It's a potent anti-inflammatory, it inhibits cells proliferating, it inhibits substance P which causes pain, it inhibits oestrogen which is not only an excitatory hormone, but it causes cells to proliferate and increases free radicals. Please have that scan of your uterus and a vitamin D test. Take care Wray
Jul 19, 2013
 Day 44 nightmare period- Help!
by: AZ SOS

I'm on day 44 of heavy bleeding and clotting. I am 47,
very active, physically fit, and a professional equestrian athlete in AZ. I have hit the wall and it seems the more active I am the worse I bleed and have cramping- left side.
I went from 3 day very regular periods my whole life to irregular longer heavy periods 6 months ago. My GYN after completing bloodwork which came back pristine put me on low dose birth control 2 1/2 months ago which I have never been on in my 47 years! In that time frame I have had a 10 day heavy period on now a 40 day period from hell with clots size of golf balls coming out daily. On day 30 went back to my GYN and she had vaginal ultrasounds and pelvic exam and biopsys done! All came back normal with 1 small fibroid that's always been there. My ovaries also looked clean. She now wants me to see a surgeon.
I want to go off the pill and get my life back.... I am drained, unable to compete and can't leave the house due to uncontolable bleeding but yet everything looks and tests normal? Help, afraid I will become anemic if keep bleeding like this not to mention unable to do my job and earn a living, oh and keep my husband! Thx for quick reply!
Jul 20, 2013
 Day 44 nightmare period- Help!
by: Wray

Hi AZ You are now in Peri-menopause, you don't need the Contraceptive pill or a surgeon! Cycles become erratic, bleeding can be very heavy, often continual, clots are common, so too is spotting, it's all normal. Progesterone does help, but I've found a minimum of 400mg/day is needed to stop the bleeding, or lessen the flow. It depends on the severity as to how much to use, sometimes more is required. Often it needs help from other nutrients, like NAC, vitamin D, taurine and the bioflavonoids. There's more info about all this on our Menstruation page. Please have a vitamin D test done, it's a potent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory, so too is progesterone. But low levels of vitamin D reduce the benefits of progesterone. It appears low levels of vitamin D could be responsible for fibroids, taking it certainly helps reduce them, see here, here, here, here, here and here. You might like to look at the ingredients in the cream we make. Take care Wray
Sep 06, 2017
 Severe Adenomyosis and Stage 4 endo
by: MSE

Hi,

I came across this page while trying to find a natural way of controlling severe bleeding and intolerable pain due to Adenomyosis and endometriosis.

I have had several laparascopies, an exploratory laparotomy and my right fallopian tube removed as it was blocked at the time I did my (failed) cycle of IVF and doctors recommended it.

Have tried to get pregnant for the last 14 years but have given up now. I'm 42 now, so don't think I can fall pregnant. My doctor recommended hysterectomy but suggested I take norethindrone 10mg a day along with a monthly injection of testosterone to see if I can bring it under control. I have not started testosterone but am on norethindrone.

I did try NAC 1800 a day 3 days a week but did not see much results. I'm trying to be on a gluten and dairy free diet but do flunk on that from time to time. I'm currently doing systemic enzyme therapy along with probiotics. I do have Calcium D glucarate, DIM, Indole 3 Carbinol, Vitamin D-3 5000 at home. I start on those and then when I don't see much difference, I become lax in using them. Would you be able to help with a proper course to get my adeno and endo under control?

My mom reached menopause at 52 years, so it may be that I also have started peri-menopause. I have also used intense abdominal massage therapy from certified pelvic massage therapists along with castor oil therapy at home.

I just don't know what to do.

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