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CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS:GOOD NEWS!!!

by Marilu
(Salem OR)

Thank you thank Wray and all of you on this forum,
such a relief to know I am not alone and have guidance and that progesterone works, thank you so much for all the work you do for all of us!!
Good news, is that, as Natpro shipment had not arrived yet, I did follow your advises, Wray,and this is what I did

so as initially i had used this progesterone in coconut oil, at only 20 or 40 mg, and it had not worked, but made things worse, so I had stopped using it
Butt few days ago I started to use it again but this time,--- as you suggested---, I did increase to 80 or a little more mg
Well, it was like a miracle, after already few hours the anxiety subsided, I felt really calm, no heart palpitations, and at night I slept like a baby, almost too much but I needed it so badly,my bloating stopped, and finally the day after my hair loss stopped, no hair falling when combing or shampooing, my hair structure felt different too, and this result is still going on as of today, even if I still have not ELIMINATED all of the xenoestrogens and food rich in estrogen, still using normal make up and hand soap
So I know for sure now those symptoms were not due to a hyperthyroid conditions but to estrogen dominance!! And that indeed thew solution was in increase the dose, as you advised me, so at least the confusion is gone and I am glad, thank you
Finally yesterday Naptro arrived and here is some not so good new--- but I am sure I just need some more guidance

Well the bad news is that with the other progesterone I succeeded to bring things back to normal by using only 80 mg of progesterone
With Natpro I used a full teaspoon (which is supposed to be about 166 mg of progesterone) but it did not work , actually I was anxious the whole day and the bloating came back and so did the insomnia, fortunately my hair is doing still well though,

So from what i have experienced it seems that with the previous coconut oil progesterone u need less maybe because is best absorbed
And maybe with Natpro u need more, but I intend to continue using Natpro though, for the reason that the skin does not stay greasy after applying it and because it dries out quickly and can put clothes on soon after, with the other one I have to wait a bit and it stays oily for the whole time!!

So I am going to use a teaspoon and half today, and see if it works
My question is: for a teaspoon I had to rub it all over my upper leg and thigh and rub and rub because it was already a lot of cream, not if I use one and half or even two teaspoons, can I divide it to both upper legs or both legs?

And when I rotate, next time can I take two parts of the body to let it absorb, because one part of the body s too little for so much cream?
Also, I am not sure I have understood when to stop the cream, I started on day 13 as my cycle is of between 26 and 28 days, shall I use it for 14 days (counting day 13 as first) and then stop?
Or do i have to wait until my bleeding appears first, then I stop?

Then I wanted to know if you have a list of all the food and herbs that are phytoestrogens, it seems that most of greens are so it has become so difficult for me to eat as it seems that all food is
Here is a short list of food that I took form this website http://www.sensiblehealth.com/Journey-04.xhtml

" The following are some of the herbs and foods with estrogenic activities:HERBSFOODS"


"Anise, hops, fennel, black cohosh, milk thistle, clover, red clover, Don Quai, licorice, ginseng, royal jelly, peony, nettle, sage, fenugreek, evening primrose oil, burdock, chamomiles, rhubar, bFrench bean, date palm, dates, garlic, pomegranate, apple, soyabean, chick pea, cherry, alfalfa, soya sprouts, cow pea, green beans, red beans, split peas, flaxseed, raspberry, carrot and squash (both have beta carotene)"

I wanted to know what you think of it Wray, does it seem accurate to you?

last question:
Once I start, do I have to use the progesterone for the rest of my life?
And, if I get better and really stable, still using the cream, can I afford sometime to drink my organic hot cacao or coffee or eat herbs again, does the progesterone protect against their effects, once is used on a regular basis?

Well I will keep you updated and let you know how an increased dose of Natpro will work

Thank you so much for now
Blessing
Marilu

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Mar 01, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS--CONTINUATION
by: Marilu

Hi Wray
is one day after first comment and wanted to update you and also seeking some help

Ok Yesterday i put Natpro at about 7 pm, I used 1 and half full teaspoons, and it took quite a while to feel its effects in my body, it started about middle of night, at first it made me very anxious and nervous, and could not sleep well, then finally I started to feel its calming effects, and fell asleep around 2 am, and am still calm as of now, 3 pm day after,
Today i am going to apply it a little earlier and still try to up the dose of a bit
But my question and confusion are the following:

Is it ok to rub and rub and rub over the same part of the body I apply cream on? In order to make it absorb? Or should I not rub and massage so much? It was really hard to make 1/2 tsp be absorbed and dried, and especially as I had to reapply several layers on same part (abdomen)??

Yesterday 1 and half teaspoon covered all over my stomach and lower back, still it took time to finally absorb and dry, some was still wet when I put clothes on

So is it OK to put clothes on even if it is not dry yet? Will it still work properly?

Also I noticed that after using already 2 and half teaspoons, totally, the tube is almost empty, if I up it today, there will be almost no dose left,the tube will last me only few days, how can I ever afford it? I cannot buy a new tube every 4 days or so?

Am I the only one who is experiencing this?
How do those who use 400 mg per day manage?
I just wanted to know how it works, because I was a little confused but I want to be able to use it

Then last,
If I have to rotate each day, and the cream for me takes every time lots of my body space, is it OK to return to same part of body already after 2 days? I do not see any other option

Hope to hear some answers soon and thank you for all your help
Marilu
Mar 02, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS:GOOD NEWS!!!
by: Wray

Hi Marilu The Natpro did work! Increasing substantially as you did also causes Oestrogen Dominance. I'm pleased you are increasing it again, as that is the only way to stop the symptoms. We have more info about this on our page Progesterone Misconceptions. You might also be interested to learn that an oil based progesterone is not absorbed as well. In fact I think I did send you you that paper, if you'd care to read it again. We know from Saliva Tests we run that the progesterone is absorbed very well. Creams are better as you point out, they are not greasy. The misconceptions paper also covers where you can put the cream. It's best to stop the progesterone before bleeding, in other words mimicking the drop it naturally makes at the end of the cycle. We can't avoid phytoestrogens, they are in all foods. Oestrogen, the phytoestrogens, and many oestrogen mimics, have a triple bonded or phenolic A-ring. But the phytosterols don't have the triple bonded A-ring, one reason labs use the phytosterols to make progesterone from. The following paper lists in descending order the phytoestrogen content of foods, with nuts and oilseeds having the highest content, see here. All oilseeds contain phytoestrogens. The USDA Food Composition site is an excellent resource. It's best to get the full report, see here. It doesn't list any in soy oil, only the phytosterols stigmasterol, campesterol and beta-sitosterol. But it's highly likely it contains some if the above oils do. Another full paper lists flaxseed, pumpkinseed and rapeseed oils as containing phytoestrogens, but they didn't analyse soy oil. But it's highly likely it contains some if the above oils do, see here. Unfortunately the abstract doesn't show the list. This paper does give a comprehensive list, see here. Phytoestrogens are impossible to avoid, even in animal products, see here. Even olive oil contains lignans, see here. This is another on lignans here. Continued below.
Mar 02, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS:GOOD NEWS!!! Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Marilu Although these are regarded as potent antioxidants, they are still phenolic substances. Coconuts have the lowest level of phytoestrogen content of all nuts, but they still contain some, ferulic acid and p-coumaric acid. Although I'm against soy in particular, all legumes contain high levels of phytoestrogens, plus trypsin inhibitors, phytates and goitrogens, see here. Grains are just as bad, see here. I'm not convinced by the favourable studies, as there are just as many unfavourable, see here. So all grains and legumes should be avoided. One of the most potent oestrogen mimics is zearalenone, produced by some moulds such as Giberella and Fusarium. Zearalenone is a mycotoxin causing infertility and abortion in animals, especially pigs. It is heat-stable and found worldwide in grains such as maize, barley, oats, wheat, rice, sorghum and bread. All of which we eat too, it's not just animal food. So where does one draw the line?! Yes those herbs do have oestrogenic properties, but these have to be weighed against their benefits. For instance milk thistle has anti-cancer effects, it also inhibits beta-glucuronidase. This enzyme breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. You don't have to use progesterone for the rest of your life, it's up to you! I for one will, as it has protective properties, especially as we age. As I've said in previous replies, I don't think you should eliminate the things you like. It you wanted to avoid all phytoestrogens, stop eating! Take care Wray
Mar 02, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS:GOOD NEWS!!!
by: Marilu

Thank you so much I am so relieved to hear that I am doing my best about the food and that I have to eat, so I am going to follow your advise and not worry about which food to eat anymore

I read the paper you enclosed,thank you, it was extremely useful, I still have few questions that I am trying to find answers to,

First today I am really confused and I wonder what I did wrong, because the day before yesterday I applied 1 and 1/2 tsp and yes it took sometime, but it did work, I could sleep and all other symptoms were gone
Yesterday I did instead increase and applied more (2 tsp) and I got a worse reaction, started to get anxious like if I had drunk lots of coffee, could
not sleep at all, and I even got a third symptom: complete loss of sex drive, which I did not have before!!
So shouldn't increasing the dose-- make things better and not worse? How come that when I was using less it worked and now when I increased it did not work?
What should I do?? decrease again? Please help

Then I really would like some advise on how to manage the large dose usage of the cream, as I mentioned earlier, the tube is already empty, first, there was a big air bubble in the tube, so the tube was defective, almost no cream at all inside, and then beside that, also by using large doses, I only have barely 2 tsp left,
I have used the cream only 3 days
do all other people on this website buy one tube every 3 days?

For me is way unreasonably expensive, is there a way to figure this out, I really would like to hear more comments and advises on this important subject, thank you

Then the following 2 last questions I wonder if you could reply by just type YES or NO?

1) Is it OK if I do not rub and massage enough to make the cream dry, because ti takes long time, Or do I have to vigorously massage until cream dries?

2) Is it ok to take 2 legs or 2 arms per time (considering i am using large doses and one leg surface is not enough), will progesterone still work even if the rotation of the body is done in much less time?

Please help
Thank you very much for all your support
Marilu
Mar 03, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS:GOOD NEWS!!!
by: Wray

Hi Marilu I did explain to you, that every time you increase the progesterone you will get oestrogen dominance. I'm not sure why you keep increasing it. I suggest you reduce slowly back down to the 1 tsp a day and see if that helps. I only suggest increasing if oestrogen dominance occurs, and it's best not to do it in the large increases you've used. 1ml or 33mg is sufficient, if that small increase doesn't help after a few days, then increase again. If you keep the tube on it's cap, the cream will drop to the bottom of the tube, which will leave an air gap at the seal end of the tube. The tubes are all filled by an accurate machine, and spot checked for weight. I don't think it was defective. Some women buy 20 tubes at a time, one I know buys 100, but then she does use 1000mg/day. This finishes the tube in 2 days. I don't think you need to use the amount you are, so please reduce slowly. I thought the misconceptions page made it clear that you can rub the cream anywhere. That you do not have to rotate it each day, that it can be applied all over the body each day if large amounts are used. It can also be used more than the minimum of twice a day, some women with bad symptoms use it hourly. I find the cream goes in within seconds, as I take no heed of the rotating idea. Take care Wray
Mar 09, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS:APOLOGIES
by: Marilu

Hi Wray,

I apologize if I had totally misunderstood your advises and if you had already mentioned it earlier
I do not know what happened, I was so confused and overwhelmed that I had things all mixed up, I am sorry!!
OK I now I understand, when you were talking about LARGE DOSES you were referring to STARTING FROM BEGINNING with large doses rather than low

And I am assuming, you meant that we should INCREASE to higher doses-- only when lower doses were creating reactions

But if a dose works, either low or higher, we should never increase it again, but keep that dose all the time
Is this correct now?
I really want to make sure I understand it clearly!
Thank you, it makes sense now, yes I should have kept on 1 and 1/2 tsp rather than increase to 2 tsp
OK now I am on that dose all the time and it seems to be fine!!
I have a question:
I started on day 13th (I calculate it so because my cycle has an average of 27 days) rather than on day 14th
So I may no have gotten an ovulation this month because I started cream one day earlier. Yesterday was my last day before cycle i used cream. Today I am not using it, but here is my question:

If i do not get my period within 3 days, can I resume cream on day 4th or 5th?

I do not want to mess my cycle, will this (resuming in 4 days) mess up my cycle completely? Or not?
Thank you

I also had a question about these this supplement
I saw a local naturopath doctor, she advised me to also take Evening Primerose oil to help enhance progesterone
I was surprised, because this was one of the oils I was using before, and I think it contributed to my painful breast tenderness, when i stopped taking it, within a week my breast tenderness went away,
online info is controversial, some say it does help progesterone, but most say it is a phyto-estrogen but because is light, it binds with all other phyto-estrogens and removes them from your body
It is so confusing and most doctors do not research much about particular supplements

If it helps, i would like to take it again, so i wanted to find out what you know about this Eve. Primerose Oil, considering you have so much experience and knowledge in this subject and have done so much research
Do you suggest i take it again, or--you know for sure it is a phyto-estrogen
You do not know how I appreciate your feed back

Thank you so much
God bless you
Marilu
Mar 11, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT WHICH DOSE TO AVOID REACTIONS:APOLOGIES
by: Wray

Hi Marilu I'm pleased the confusion is cleared, and that the lower amount is helping you. It's only necessary to increase it again if you feel symptoms coming back. Ie stress drops progesterone levels, so use more when stressed. During winter or dark gloomy days symptoms might come back, increase the progesterone. Large meals drop levels, so does alcohol, many things in fact! If your cycle averages 27 days then day 13 is correct. Starting the progesterone one day earlier than ovulation won't harm, in fact it should aid ovulation. There's info about this on the progesterone misconceptions page. Are you wanting to start the cream on day 4 or 5 because your symptoms are bad? If so then I suggest you don't stop the cream at all, use it through your bleeding. If you find you can follow your cycle, ie starting the progesterone at ovulation, then I suggest you stick with this. Using progesterone 8 or more days before ovulation, can stop it. Although it normally has to be about 200mg/day for this to occur. I've not come across any papers suggesting evening primrose oil enhances progesterone. All oils and oilseeds contain phytoestrogens, but the amount in the oil is so low in the doses used, it won't have a great influence. The following paper lists in descending order the phytoestrogen content of foods, with nuts and oilseeds having the highest content, see here. All oilseeds contain phytoestrogens. The USDA Food Composition site is an excellent resource. It's best to get the full report, see here. Take care Wray
Mar 14, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT DOSE: CYCLE REGULARIZED, question
by: Marilu

Wray thank you so much again for your feed-back and advises
Good news is I got my cycle in time, exactly 2 days after stopping Natpro on 1 and ½ tsp a day,(about 200 mg?) and so my goal is to wait until day 14, to start Natpro again, as this time it was 29 days

The effects of Natpro have been lasting even after I stopped using it and during the cycle as well, still no estrogen dominance symptoms, for well 5 days,, amazing, have been very happy
But today unfortunately the symptoms are returning, hair loss, my sinus is starting to get congested and swollen, and some restlessness during the night,
A local naturopath I had seen has advised me to ignore symptoms and try to cope with them them and wait until day 14 before restarting Natpro, not to mess up with cycle
From your suggestions I understand (please correct me if I misunderstood!!) you are saying that it is my choice, I could choose between ---either keep these symptoms and wait till day 14, or if they are unbearable to me, to start Natpro even now, on day 4
You also mentioned that if I do start this early I might not get an ovulation though!

1) Does this mean I still get the bleeding on day 28 or 29 even without ovulation? Or no bleeding?

2) And how does this work, if I start today or tomorrow, (day 5) then would I stop on day 27 or so and wait for bleeding (with or without ovulation? Yes?

I guess the real question, is the following, I have tried to understand this, but sorry, it is still not clear to me:
3) If cycling women keep on using Natpro every day of the month, does the cycle become messed up, do they lose their cycle and they stop bleeding for good?
Or cycle keeps on coming every month in anyway, even if using Natpro non-stop?

I did some research online in the past on medical sites, some stated that when someone miss their period is due to lack of Estrogen, some would say instead that is due to lack of Progesterone, so the whole thing is still so messy and not clear for me, even if I have read the Misconception about Progesterone, I still do not understand well, what happens if cycling women use progesterone with no stop, if so I wanted to ask you about it
I hope you could help me to get some clarity

Also, my period was much more painful than usual this month, and bleeding a little longer, is that also normal when to progesterone supplementation?

Thank you so much for all your help, I appreciate your advises very much
Marilu
Mar 18, 2012
 CONFUSED ABOUT DOSE: CYCLE REGULARIZED, question
by: Wray

Hi Marilu I'm so pleased things seem to be settling down. But not that the oestrogen dominance has returned. I can't agree with the naturopath, the whole point of using progesterone is to stop those symptoms, why suffer needlessly? So yes the choice is yours, you can suffer the symptoms, or not. Progesterone can stop ovulation, far safer than any Contraceptive. But there's no harm in that, millions of women take contraceptives to prevent it. But once they stop the pill they often have problems with ovulation and conceiving. This does not occur with progesterone. In fact for 9 months while pregnant, and progesterone levels are very high, we don't ovulate, but after birth ovulation resumes again. And yes you will still bleed, just as women on the pill still bleed. It's only if you use 400mg/day and over that bleeding is likely to stop. I recommend this much to women with severe bleeding. So no, if you use the progesterone daily, through your period too, it will not stop it. It will not prevent ovulation beginning again once you follow your cycle. In some women bleeding occurs earlier or later than it would if following the cycle, but there's no harm in that. Progesterone is a potent anti-inflammatory, please rub it all over your stomach when you have your next period. It's excess oestrogen and prostaglandins causing the pain. Oestrogen causes the lining to build, if there is excess, progesterone will cause a heavier or longer bleeding when starting it. You could say it's 'cleaning' the uterus out. You might like to read the page we have on Menstruation. It explains why and how it occurs. So to recap…… your period might get disrupted using the progesterone daily, but no harm is done. Once you follow your cycle, it will settle back into it's old pattern. Ovulation will only stop if using it daily, it will return once you follow your cycle again. I only suggest doing this for 2-3 months until all signs of excess oestrogen go. Some women find they need to do it for longer, it depends how much excess oestrogen is present. I do hope this clears up the confusion. Take care Wray
May 21, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE CONFUSION
by: Marilu

Hi Wray
Thank you so much for your last advise you posted, it helped a lot, and I wonder if you can help me again and shed some light on this confusion
First I would like to know the following, if I have high estrogen levels and low progesterone, does that translate into high prolactin?
Or it is so only for post pregnancy women?

Then a question about my own my situation, I have been feeling so much better, following your advices, and been able to have the Estrogen under control and all those symptoms (hair loss, anxiety, insomnia, difficulty breathing, GI disturbs) have been totally absent for these months, I have been following my cycle, with 1 and 1/2 teaspoon a day, for 14 days on day 14, wonderful!

But lately,--- even if everything is fine:and been feeling well, and even gotten rid of some extra weight by just using Natpro,-- i have been noticing though that, beside my bleeding length has decreased of a bit for each cycle, also my sex drive has been decreasing slowly and now is to the point that I am having intimacy problems in my relationship with my partner because the drive for me is totally gone, even if every estrogen dominance symptoms are totally under control

As, a month ago, I started taking L-Arginine (I used to take 2 years ago with lots of benefits) because I have started exercise more and also to lose some extra fat, and as I just happened to read about that this amino acid increases Prolactin, and Insulin.

Maybe because it aids in the production of growth hormone, I do not know,--- but I have been wondering ---if this supplement may be the cause of the loss of my sex drive lately??, if it really causes the prolactin to increase???

Do you think you can shed some light on this?
Is this loss of sex drive due to the fact that this L-Arginine may have increased the prolactin level in my hormones?

Or maybe is this loss due that maybe I am using too much Progesterone cream and maybe i should decrease the dose?
And again, I go back to previous question, does high Prolactin cause Progesterone dominance or Estrogen dominance?

Or is it the opposite? (High Progesterone or Estrogen cause high Prolactin?)

Should I decrease Natpro, or stop? or increase it?

Would you please indicate again that link where i could get this saliva test kit on your website?
How long should I measure these levels?

Thank you so very much for your help and advice
Marilu
May 23, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE CONFUSION
by: Wray

Hi Marilu Well I'm delighted the progesterone has helped you with all those things. Very puzzled your libido has dropped though, as we have many using it to increase theirs, including men. It could be the arginine, as it does increase prolactin slightly, see here. This is info from Medline, but no mention of prolactin, see here, although it does mention oestrogen. This is a known stimulator of prolactin, whereas progesterone inhibits it, see here, here, here and here. It could be your dopamine is low, as this allows prolactin to rise. You could try taking the amino acid tyrosine, which is the precursor to dopamine. We have more info on how to take it on our page Natural Antidepressants. Arginine is such a beneficial amino, so I'm puzzled why you're now having this reaction to it, if in fact it is the arginine, and not low tyrosine. Arginine is the precursor to nitric oxide, which is a vasodilator. It's of vital importance for erections in men, although I don't have any papers about it's importance in females, I can't see why not. Viagra works on the same principle as arginine, progesterone too for that matter, as it increases nitric oxide production. You could try stopping the arginine, or try taking tyrosine. But as the progesterone is helping you so much, I don't think you should alter the amount you're using. Take care Wray
May 23, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE CONFUSION
by: Marilu

Hi Wray

thank you so much for your links, I read them,and so it seems that L-Arginine increases Prolactin,
What a bummer
1)--Wray, do you think Prolactin cause same disturbs and symptoms that estrogen does, meaning, estrogen dominance?

Yes you are right, in the past L-Arginine has helped me in fact to enhance sex drive, and even now, when i first started it, about 1 1/2 months ago, my sex drive had improved a lot,
but then, lately I noticed that it had dropped down
--so i am thinking that it must be the Prolactin increase that in the end has counteracted the L-Arginine good effect?

I will follow your advise and stop L-Arginine for a while, and keep you updated, and I should try L-Tyrosine,

--- For some reason I omitted an important info, that this last month (May 6th) i missed my period, but I waited 14 days from the 6th and then started Natpro on the 19th in anyway, and something odd has happened:
While was on Natpro my period showed up on the 21st, so I stopped the progesterone, as I want to follow my cycle
So I am very confused, that is why I thought to reduce the dose of Natpro, considering also that bleeding had become less and less previous to this month

2) Is this normal while using Progesterone?
Do you still advise i keep same high dose, even after this confusing effect?

I really would appreciate your feed back so much
Thank you in advance

Marilu
May 24, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE CONFUSION
by: Wray

Hi Marilu See if stopping the arginine helps bring the libido back. I'm surprised by this, but it's only by trying this will you know. And try the tyrosine, but I suggest waiting for a week or two to see if the problem is the arginine. Prolactin does have similar properties to oestrogen, they are both inflammatory hormones. Both reduce libido too, plus many other things. Progesterone can upset the cycle, but this usually occurs in the early months. I don't know how long you'd been using it prior to writing in. This thread starts late Feb/early March, which is only about 2 1/2 months. One other thing I forgot to ask you was your age, it's not mentioned by you either. This would help me. Take care Wray
Jun 15, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Marilu

Wray thank you so much for your reply, I find it very helpful, yes I agree with you is like a contradiction, Arginine should actually help the libido!!
i did interrupt though and experimented and it seems that things went back to normal, so that problem is resolved now, i do not know if it is because I stopped the Arginine,
I have also been taking L-Tyrosine as you advise, but I cannot take it regularly because Tyrosine has always made me shaky and given me palpitations, so I have been taking it every 2 days and only 500 mg in the morning, I know from experience that if I increase dose and frequency, I get insomnia and palpitations, but in this way yes I can notice that it helps a bit!
About my age, I am 53, I know what might be thinking,is the age, however my period was actually very regular up to this month, but I of course, it can be expected

QUESTION: After this last period, (which as mentioned to you in previous post, started 2 days after starting Natpro) I started Natpro again on day 14 (almost 2 teaspoons as usual). This time bleeding has started again on first day of Natpro, and has been continuing still now, becoming a little heavier every day, today is day 26 of cycle, so it has been going on for almost 2 weeks.
So i wanted to know if you think that I should stop Natpro today-- or-- should ignore bleeding and continue Natpro until day 28th (Monday)?

Or should I maybe decrease of a bit? would decreasing cause estrogen receptor reaction?
Wait for your answer
thank you so much for help and advises
Marilu
Jun 15, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE-CorrectionSpotting
by: Marilu

Wray
I apologize, I think I made a mistake in my previous post the one I posted earlier today so i wanted to post this other one as correction
When I mentioned that as soon as I started Natpro again on day 14, I started to BLEED, I meant Spotting, not bleeding, I am sorry, and the spotting has been increasing a bit per day and today it has turned into normal bleeding, (it is 3 days before cycle is due)
My questions I placed in my previous post, are still the same though
Sorry for this terms confusion
I hope to hear your advises
Thank you again
Marilu
Jun 17, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Marilu I'm glad the experimenting has helped you. Have you considered taking only 250mg/day tyrosine, or less? It could be this is all you need, some people are very sensitive to it. I can take 2tsp and it makes no difference to me! It seems your uterine lining is probably thicker than normal, and the progesterone is causing it to shed. You will by now have stopped it as you are having a normal bleed. When you start again in 14 days time see how you get on with the 330mg/day you're using. I have found 400mg/day is needed to stop bleeding, but it could be you are now entering the erratic days at the end of Peri-menopause. No amount of progesterone will regulate the cycle again, but it can help the symptoms. If you find this the case, it's best to use the progesterone daily, as there is no cycle to follow. If you know when your mother went into Menopause it will give you an idea of when you will. Take care Wray
Jun 22, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray thank you so much
Yes it may work better with dividing the 500 mg of Tyrosine twice a day, maybe it will work best in lower doses, will try it, thank you so much

When you say 330 mg Natpro or 400,, I do not know how many teaspoons that would be? Would you please be able to tell me the corresponding doses in tsp?

Now I am taking a little less than 2 tsp, how many tsp would it be 400 mg? Thank you
My mother got her menopause at 58 and her mother at 60, i know it is kind of late,
I just know that even last month, beside this month, the moment I started Natpro, the spotting and bleeding started right away, the moment I stopped, the bleeding stopped

So are you saying that the dose I am taking is too low and I need to increase, because bleeding is a sign that I am not taking enough Progesterone?

I thought that because it made me feel extremely tired and sleepy, even in the day, although i take it at night, plus the continuous bleeding, that it is a sign I was taking too much Progesterone and that I need to decrease of just a bit
But if I understand you are saying instead that I should increase to 400?
Do you know WHY LOWER than 400 mg doses cause bleeding???
Shall i try decrease first and see what happens? I am really so confused
Can you please advise which I should do?
Thank you for your help, I appreciate it a lot!!!
Marilu
Jun 25, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Marilu You are currently using 2tsp per day which is 330mg/day progesterone. 400mg/day is 12ml or 2.4 tsp. We do have a chart at the bottom of our page on How to use progesterone cream which gives all the measurements. On the 3rd March I wrote….. "I did explain to you, that every time you increase the progesterone you will get oestrogen dominance. I'm not sure why you keep increasing it. I suggest you reduce slowly back down to the 1 tsp a day and see if that helps. I only suggest increasing if oestrogen dominance occurs, and it's best not to do it in the large increases you've used." On the 11th March I said "I'm pleased the confusion is cleared, and that the lower amount is helping you." And yet it seems you are using 2tsp now. So I'm not suggesting to you that you increase it. Originally you said 170mg/day was helping, ie 5ml of cream/1tsp, then you kept increasing the amount, and I'm not sure why. I only suggest 400mg/day if bleeding is heavy and continual, and you don't appear to have that, only spotting. So it could well be you have now entered that erratic phase in peri-menopause. Are you still trying to follow your cycle, as you now have me very confused! Maybe you could come back to me about what you are doing and when. Take care Wray
Jun 26, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Marilu

I apologize for the confusion
And thank you so much for your input and detailed explanation, Wray
I never increased since you told me not to, months ago, Yes i did increase only once, long time ago, and reached 2 or 2 and 1/2, because I had misunderstood, but since you explained that it was not good and that I should not have done so, then i did decreased slowly back to the dose i have always been using
the dose that eventually worked and still works, for me with no estrogen dominance reaction, was and still is, a little over 1 and 1/2 tsp, which I do not know if it may be 1 and 2 thirds or 3 fourths or so, it is difficult to see, so I just call this dose -"a little over 1 and 1/2 tsp=almost 2 tsp"--
That is why the confusion, sorry, I have never increased and kept this dose since then,

About when I am taking it, i am following the cycle, i start it on day 14 for 14 days

The spotting the last 2 months has started on the first day of applying the cream, and it increases in volume and flows, gradually until toward the end (last 4 days) it becomes bleeding, not excessive bleeding, but still bleeding, when I stop the cream, the bleeding stops as well! So I cant tell which category I fall in, if this is called "bleeding' or just spotting
Would you be able to give me your input?
Decrease a bit gradually?
or instead increase to 400 mg?
Hope this helps to clarify for the previous confusion i had caused
Thank you so much
marilu
Jun 28, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Marilu That does clear things up for me! It is difficult to judge how much, and it's really not that important either. Unless it goes up and down by 2-3ml each time, which it seemed to me you were doing, as the amounts you mentioned varied each time. This would upset the cycle. Starting progesterone can upset it too, and it does take time to settle down. Although you said your cycles were regular before using the progesterone, it could be just this starting up phase. But it could be you are now entering the last year or two of Peri-menopause, when cycles do become erratic. I would suggest you use the progesterone daily, through any bleeding, for 2-3 months. Your periods will come and go as they will, but it does mean you get topped up with progesterone. Each time you stop it allows oestrogen to rise again. Then once you feel stable, you can begin following your cycle again. There's info about this on our page How to use progesterone cream. It could of course be that they have become irregular, and therefore you should continue using it daily, as they are impossible to follow. I would also ask you to consider taking about 2000mg/day NAC (N-acetyl cysteine). It inhibits the MMPs which break down the lining, this should stop the spotting. There's more info about this on our page on Menstruation. Take care Wray
Jun 29, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Marilu

Thank you so much, I appreciate
Wray
I will take NAC, that is a good idea
I cannot take Prgesterone daily, because, as soon as I start, the heavy spotting-bleeding starts, and it does not stop until I stop the Natpro, is very uncomfortable, I do not want to bleed daily, even if it would only be for 3 months, I also experienced heavy tiredness while taking Progesterone, which I did not experience when I first started,
Is it possible to increase maybe, you were mentioning that it takes 400 mg to stop bleeding, and can I ask you also why?

Which is the other best alternative, (beside taking it every day)
could I up the dose to 400 then?
Thank you
Marilu
Jul 01, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Marilu Stopping and starting progesterone allows oestrogen to rise each time you stop. This builds the lining and stimulates production of MMPs, these break down the lining. There's more info about this on our Menstruation page. It's essential to break this cycle, and the only way I've found to do it is to use 400mg/day or more progesterone on a daily basis, as it suppresses both oestrogen and the MMPs. But before you try this, please see if the NAC will help, as this also inhibits the MMPs. Take care Wray
Jul 30, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Marilu

Hi Wray

Thank you, thank you so much for your advises

I wanted to get back to you after experimenting, as you suggested
So I did try the NAC first, I am glad you told me so
You were totally right, it does help a lot, bleeding did not occur any longer
The only problem with NAC is that, because is rich in Sulfate it gives me itching and dry skin all over my body, if I use it regularly, I know this from before, when I have used it in the past, many times
So I am interrupting every 3 days or so, and it seems it works still

Because I believe that what you say it is correct (Stopping and starting progesterone allows oestrogen to rise each time you stop) witnessing my symptoms return over and over, have decided to follow your advise in this too, and last week i started to use the cream every day, about 2 tsp, as usually

Now there must be something wrong in what I am doing, because this is what happened again, (as it used to happen also, each time I would started the cream on day 14)
The first 3 days of using the cream, wow, all symptoms (hair loss, sinus problems, dry skin and insomnia) totally disappear, gone, and stay so for 3-4 days

Then, at the 4th day, they slowly return, especially hair loss and sinus congestion, but not at the same extent though as just before starting the cream, less, but they return

So I wanted to ask you if you can shed some light here

I am thinking: There must be 3 possible reasons why this happens
1) I think i might have read this in your forum somewhere, that because I was only using the cream 14 days a month, it is just taking time for the progesterone to accumulate in the blood and stay constant, so it fluctuates, until it become stable? So this would cause the return of symptoms, Yes?

2)Or it may be because I am putting it all over my body, I am petite, so this may cause my skin to saturate, and after few days it does not absorb anymore??

3) Or because sometime 2 tsps can be a little less or more (it is not a mathematical measurement)so i wonder if this causes fluctuations of the estrogen level in my blood, and that in turn, causes some E.dominance symptoms again, even if I am using it?

Which of these 3 do you suggest is the cause of my symptoms returning on a smaller extent, after 3 days (during which they had totally stopped)??

Also, since I started to use it every day, i have been experiencing heavy physical tiredness, I am used to go jogging regularly, with no effort, but now I feel i can barely hike few hundred feet, it is so strange, and it feels like a big effort even getting up in the morning, i use the cream in he evening, but i feel physically tired in the morning, so I am wondering whether I should maybe decrease of a bit, to remove this side effect?
What do you suggest?
Once again, I thank you so much for your advises and support, it is of a great help to me

I appreciate it
Thank you Wray
Marilu
Jul 31, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Marilu Well I'm pleased the NAC stopped the bleeding, but surprised it causes you itching etc. It's natural sulphur, nothing like the man made chemicals such as sulphur dioxide, to which I'm very allergic and causes me to itch! But I'm pleased you've found a protocol which works for you. Each time you start the progesterone it will stimulate oestrogen, hence your symptoms. It's a question of working through them. You are already using a good amount of progesterone, which should eventually overcome the oestrogen dominance. So I'm relieved you've decided to use it continuously for a few weeks, I'm sure this will help. It is essential to try and keep to the same amount, fluctuating amounts will cause problems. Do you have a kitchen measuring spoon set, as this is the best. 2 tsp is 10ml, I prefer working in ml as they are more accurate. So if you are using a teaspoon used for stirring to measure, you'll find this is only 3 to 4ml. If you are using a 5ml tsp, then it must be the same measurement each day. i.e. not a heaped tsp one day and a flat tsp the next. All the symptoms you describe are due to excess oestrogen, they will go with persistence. Please re-read the page I gave you on Progesterone Misconceptions for info about saturating the fatty layer. Take care Wray
Aug 16, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Marilu

Wray
hi again and once more, thank you so much for your clarifications and help. It makes sense now, yes after buying a measuring teaspoon it is so much easier, what a difference, thank you!
I have included the latest test, done on day 21 of my cycle. I was hoping I could have attached it as a Word doc, but I just copied it, hopefully it will appear in the same order and sequence as in the lab format.
I do not know though is the ranges in the normal values they gave me, apply to me, I hope so, I am 53 and I have my period, more regular than not, in general, and I wonder if instead of pre-menopausal values, they should have compared my results to peri-menopausal values? but I am hoping they are pretty much the same. What do you think?
Anyway, from this test, my Estrogen level seem to be withing the normal range now.

During last 2 weeks of using Naptro (330 mg) a day, i started to experience severe breast tenderness, which is increasing. And so i was surprised when the test result showed my Progesterone level is high. I did not use the cream for 30 hours prior to test, as recommended.
So i am assuming that the breast tenderness and pain are probably due to using a little too much cream?
If I may ask, of how much do you think i should decrease, to avoid estrogen dominance symptoms? I was thinking maybe just go from 2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon and 3 quarters first? See if the tenderness decreases a bit, then go to 1 tsp and half?
I really would value your point and insights in this so much much, i appreciate.
I will also post the lab comments and advises, in a second post, I was wondering if you could read them and tell me what you think? Because I am a little confused. Thank you
Hope it is clear to read it, I look forward to your reply!
Thank you so very much Wray!
Marilu

CURRENT
Hormone Test 08/08/2012 Units Range

Estradiol (saliva) 2.9 pg/ml 1.3-3.3 Premenopausal (Luteal)

Progesterone (saliva) 349 H pg/ml 75-270 Premenopausal (Luteal)


Ratio: Pg/E2 (saliva) 120 Optimal: 100-500 when E2 1.3-3.3 pg/ml

Current Hormone Therapies
08-08-2012 - 330 mg topical Progesterone cream (Last month used daily); oral Iodine/Iodide (OTC) (daily Last used
Aug 16, 2012
 PROGESTERONG-PROLACTIN- bleeding
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray
I hope it is Ok for me to include this lab it seems they are advising to reduce cream?
I would appreciate your feed back, thank you!!!

Lab Comments
Estradiol is within normal range. If symptoms of estrogen imbalance are problematic this may be due to other hormonal imbalances with a symptom profile similar to low or high estradiol (e.g. low progesterone, low testosterone, low or high
cortisol, low thyroid). Progesterone is higher than the expected range, assuming that topical progesterone supplementation was discontinued >
2 days from sample collection, as indicated on the requisition form. This could be due to more recent use of topical progesterone or that the original topical progesterone dosing was excessive and/or metabolism/clearance was slow. With topical progesterone use salivary progesterone levels peak at about 3 hr and usually return to baseline within about 36-48 hr; however, this varies depending on length of time progesterone has been used, the dose, and the individual's rate of
clearance. The "progesterone-supplemented" range of 200-3000 pg/ml is based on 12-24 hr post supplementation with 10-30 mg of topical progesterone. Very high (> 50 mg) and prolonged progesterone dosing can result in tissue retention of the progesterone up to weeks. If symptoms of progesterone excess are problematic (eg. dizzyness, bloating, increase in symptoms of estrogen deficiency), dosage reduction should be considered.
Aug 20, 2012
 PROLACTIN-PROGESTERONE -Bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Marilu Pleased the measuring spoon has helped. Your results are interesting, as they say your ratio is 120:1, this to us is low. From Saliva Tests we run periodically, we've found the ratio should be 600:1 over over to feel well. Incidentally the symptoms of 'dizzyness and bloating' are not excess progesterone but caused by oestrogen. They can occur when first starting it, when increasing it or if reducing too fast. If you wish to reduce the amount please do it slowly. Your suggestion of 2tsp down to 1tsp is far too fast, you will feel awful. Reducing by 16mg, or 1/2 ml (10th tsp) of cream is best. You could try 1ml (5th tsp) but if you feel adverse symptoms occurring you'll know it's too fast. Stay on the reduction for a few days before reducing again. The whole point about using progesterone is to get rid of bad symptoms. If yours have all gone, then reducing now is a good idea, but please do it slowly! Take care Wray
Aug 21, 2012
 PROGESTERONG-PROLACTIN- bleeding, my own experience
by: Marilu

Hi Wray
thank you for replying and explaining and for reading my results
In my previous post I was suggesting to go from 2 tsps, gradually to ONE AND HALF TSP, over several weeks! not one tsp! I know 1 is too low.

If I understand correctly your ideal value should be of 600 for Pg and 1 for E2?
In the lab values they stop at 500. Is that a wrong measuring from their side? I am confused. could you please clarify this a bit?

Also, did you see that my Pg value is too high? It is 349 when it should be within 270
As i was asking in my previous post, do you think that also might be an error (their values are too low??) from the lab?
And then the other reason why I posted a question, here, is because I wanted to know if you think that is good or bad? (having high Pg
Is it good because this means that the Progesterone is dominant now for me? Or is it bad because it can cause imbalance?

About last information you wrote me, yes, I was feeling ill the last 2 weeks while using, for almost 2 months, every day, 2 teaspoons,
my breast had increased size and I could not even walk without feeling pain. It was terrible. I could barely get up from bed because of enormous fatigue, and I stopped exercising (after 30 years) because I did not have the least physical strength to do it, which is very unusual for me, it was a big effort even walking.
I also started to develop acne on my face and chest, which is also something new for me. Within 10 days I also gained weight all over, and this is what got my attention, I have never been over 99LB, even when i eat lots of fat, and I was eating almost nothing because I was not that hungry, so i got concerned. I did research and found out that these are also symptoms of too much progesterone as well.
I did stop taking it on Thursd of last week, and slowly all of these symptoms have disappeared.

Finally today I feel totally well, and myself again, I have my energy back, acne is gone, I fit in my clothes again, breast tenderness is totally gone. I intend to start the cream again on day 14, since my cycle started on Sat, and I will start with less, this time, and I might go for 14 days or non-stop, depending
I will let you know how it goes, but could you please reply to my questions I placed above? (about the values), thank you

I understand it is a slow process to find out the right dose for each one, as everyone is different. So i think that listening to the body's own feed back is a the first step,
I know I will find my own ideal dose eventually, and the way how to use progesterone, It was my own idea to take it everyday, maybe i did not need to, and/or probably if I had used 1 and half tsp, rather than 2, every day, those symptoms would have never appeared. So i will see

Thank you for your advises and I wait to hear about the questions above, I appreciate it a lot Wray, your time and all
Thanks
Marilu
Aug 23, 2012
 PROGESTERONG-PROLACTIN- bleeding, my own experience
by: Wray

Hi Marilu I'm glad you were going to reduce slowly, I thought from what you had written, you were going to drop it by 1tsp immediately. And yes, 600 for P and 1 for E2. There's nothing wrong with the lab refs, they have levels they believe are correct, based on the tests they run. i.e. they take the range over a great number of women. But as in anything, if you start on the wrong premise, you'll get a wrong answer. Besides they look at the range, they don't check to see if the women in the studies were feeling well. It's just that we've found from the saliva tests that 600:1 and over is better. If you take a look at them you'll notice the results are all over 600:1 and the women were feeling well. Even the naturopath who runs them for us has a ratio of 800:1, and she was delighted by this. And I did notice your progesterone value, and it's not too high. It can go over 100,000ng/ml if a great deal is used, see here. A high progesterone value means nothing if the oestrogen isn't taken into account too, it's all about balance. Your ratio came out to my mind too low. Are feeling feeling better, that's all you have to ask yourself. Progesterone cannot cause weight gain, it speeds metabolism and inhibits mitosis. Whereas oestrogen is a mitogen, causing cells to proliferate, including fat cells. Oestrogen also causes water retention, which adds to the weight, it's also an excitatory, inflammatory hormone, see here, here, here and here. By stopping the progesterone you have stopped stimulating the oestrogen receptors, so you will feel better. The idea behind using progesterone is to suppress any oestrogen, this can only be achieved by using enough and it does take time too. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Aug 23, 2012
 PROGESTERONG-PROLACTIN- bleeding, my own experience
by: Marilu

Wray
thank you for explaining the ratio, OK at least now it is more clear. About what you say is the reason why I felt better when I stopped, Yes, it makes sense. But the symptoms were different,
When I had that reaction the first time I started Progesterone, several months ago, it was because I had started on a way too low dose. This time was a high dose. Then the Estrogen receptors reaction, started in the beginning and then eventually subsided after a weeks or a month or so.
I have been on this dose for several months now, and the only difference this time is that I decided to go for everyday, rather than for 14 days a month. In the beginning, of this, I never got a reaction when I started this last time, I felt great for at least 20 days or more of uninterrupted usage. Then, my period was interrupted,then slowly my breast increased in size, a lot, then the pain in my breast, when i even walked, then this terrible tiredness, that I have never experienced before in my life, even walking (not jogging) was a enormous strain for my body. I was never awake, always sleepy, I had stopped even going to work, going shopping, I was just home and could not move easily, and I slept a lot, even if I used the cream at night.
So I know these are due to Progesterone,it makes you calm and relaxed. It was relaxing me too much though. Estrogen makes me hyper. CONT'D below
Aug 23, 2012
 PROGESTERONG-PROLACTIN- bleeding, my own experience
by: Marilu

Hi Wray again,
About my above post, I also read a lot about this and found lots of forums where women were having similar experiences and it was due to excess of Progesterone, after reducing, symptoms disappeared.
So maybe the other disturbs may be due to excess of Estrogen, but the tiredness and relaxation I know they were effects of too much Progesterone, they are beneficial on a low level, but too much sleepiness and tiredness is not good. My body was telling me I was taking too much of it. When I stopped, the first thing I noticed the day after, I was less tired, I could take a walk, it took several days for me to be functional again. The breast is back to its normal size. I also read in medical sites, that too much Progesterone (imbalance) also causes breast increase and pain, I think it is the imbalance, the "TOO MUCH" of everything.
Just because something is very good, it does not mean that there is never any risk in using too much, The physical tiredness was caused by too much Progesterone. That first Estrogen receptors reaction i had when i first started, months ago, it did in fact cause the opposite, it caused me insomnia, palpitations, nervousness, could not breath and other symptoms typical of Estrogen. Then it went away after a week or so, This was the opposite, too calm, too relaxed, too tired to live. I have a feeling that this happened because I was using it every day (which is my own idea) and too much, so it was accumulating in my body slowly. That is why it happened after a while

Yes the ZRT labs may be wrong in their references, but my body's own feed back is not wrong.
I ll start on day 14, or earlier, and I will start with 1 tsp and 3 quarters (rather than 2) and will see what happens. But I will let you know! This is an experiment, I am still testing, hopefully this will be helpful to women having the same problem!
Thank you so much for your support and help and advises Wray!!
Marilu
Aug 25, 2012
 PROGESTERONG-PROLACTIN- bleeding, my own experience
by: Wray

Hi Marilu It's good you're experimenting, it helps me so much, I get to learn as you're learning. I can only help so much, and of course don't know how someone might react. Only they know their own body, no one else! I don't think ZRT are wrong in their references, it's just that we've found a higher ratio to be better. Please do let me know how you get on, it only adds to the total knowledge of progesterone for everyone. Take care Wray

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