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Waiting for the Miracle

by Sage
(CA/USA)

Hello Wray,
I have come across your website in past when searching for 'how to get hormones balanced'.
I had pretty much written off Progesterone because of my past experiences over the last 10 years with it. But after reading much information on this website I may have just put a piece of the puzzle together that has been missing for most of my life. I am 45 years old and have had ALOT of emotional problems since the age of 14. I have done a tremendous amount of cleansing and detoxing, do not use chemicals of any kind in household products, personal care products and am careful about choosing the cleanest possible foods.

When I read your personal story and all the struggles with energy, mood, depression, constant thought of suicide I thought I may have found the answer. I am not sure where to start but want to give you some backround information so you can possibly advise and reassure me.

At the age 14-15 I had horrible anxiety attacks and panic and dropped out of high school to attend Independant Home Study, as I could no longer go to school due to the anxiety and looking back in hindsight depression and all that goes with that. In my teenage years I used alcohol and other substances to just help me feel normal. My cycles were usually on the ligher side and not alot of physical problems but as soon as I entered my mid twenties the PMS came on very strong. I would turn into a different person and become so angry, rageful, tearful, negative, introverted and shy. I never correlated it to be the "luteal' phase but I'm sure it was.
By the time I reached 30 I felt like things really got bad. I was constantly in a 'bad' mood. Never feeling good and exhaustion was setting in. Work/college was always a challange I did not have the energy and felt like I was walking through quick sand and I fluxuated between anxiety and depression was very shy, introverted but forced myself to be a part of the world.

In 2003 I used a 10% compounded progesterone cream and I do believe it helped but at that point I still had 'undiagnosed' hypothyroidisim and MAJOR adrenal fatigue. So all my symptoms did not disappear on 100-200 mg of progesterone. I still had anger, rage, irritability, low energy, always breast tenderness, depression, very low self confidence ect.
I tried many herbs, supplements, healing modialites, protocals, energy work, cleansing and detoxifying regimines. So I believe much of this work has helped and cleared my body but if the hormones are not in balance it doesn't feel like much has been done despite perseverance, commitment and hard work.

This brings me up to 2007 which was a breaking point I developed panic and anxiety as the most difficult of a long list of symptoms that became intollerable. I was on 100-200mg of progesterone and a very small dose of natural thyroid. When I stopped these the intensity of the anxiety and panic was minimized. I was not feeling well off of these either but I had the choose the lesser of the two. It was at this time I became convinced that I was in severe adrenal exhaustion and spent almost 2.5 years on hydrocortisone with small amount of thyroid and progesterone off and on. I was in no better place . . . just surviving.
During this time I read and studied everything to make sure I was as toxin free as possible inside and out and thought this would resolve the problems. In 2010 it was suggested I use estrogen and progesterone. I did and BOY did I feel better initally and I would be worse than before. I tried this off and on for 1.5 years and could never tolerate the hormones. Now I am begining to understand why . . . . the estrogen stimulates the progesterone production in the begining only to then become estrogen dominant. I was then off hormones altogether from Jan 2011 to early 2012. During that time I did a nutrional balancing program and used only supplements and minerals, worked on eliminating heavy metals ect. I did feel better in some noticeable ways but I still had no joy in life, no inspiration, just going through the motions daily. Energy would be better but well-being and mood not good. This off and on through the whole month not just 2 weeks before the cycle. Ovulation very hard as well as days befofe the cycle and ON the cycle.

My cycle has been every 28 days for the past 3-4 months. Used be anywhere from 21-31 days. Lasts about 2-3 days. These days energy is better physically, but IRRITABILITY, anger, depression, headaches, constipation, some anxiety, heart palps, alcohol craving, suspician/paranoia at time, very weepy, mood swings are very difficult to live with. The good news is through all the work my adrenals are much stronger. I can tolerate a normal dose of natural thyroid medication. I do sleep well at times (used to be life long insomnia) and my endurance is better. But I cry frequently and easily, feel no joy, am not clear headed, low confidence, depressed (better with thyroid but not at all resolved).

This brings me to now. I follow an Ayurvedic protocal to pacify my constitution (vata) and this is helpful. Am on some calming herbs and taking adrenal herbs and can tolerate thyroid.
But I need help with my hormones . . . .


Saliva test from Labrix May 2012
Estradiol 4.97 1.0- 10.8
Progesterone 548.43 500-3000 with supplementation
Ratio 110.35

(was using 75mg Progesterone/ .3-.5 mg Estadiol for 2-3 peroid . . . trying again)


After reading your website I used my progesterone cream yesterday 4 doses spread out totalling 250mg. By late evening I had terrible achyness all over, slight headache, very irritalbe and negative.
Today started with 100mg 8:00a.m.
still moody, down, lack of motivation, weepy, suspicous, paranoid
9:00 50mg not much change
11:00 100mg by 12:00 symptoms improved not gone though.

I'm suspecting that I need a large dose of progesterone. How would you suggest to start?
Your imput will be so appreciated. I've been searching for 30 years.
Thank you so much
Sage

Comments for Waiting for the Miracle

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Nov 22, 2012
 Waiting for the Miracle
by: Wray

Hi Sage What a life! But yes, so like mine and too many other women, although there were good days too. I was lucky enough to come out of the deep depressions, and all the other symptoms for a few years. Only to go down again. Puberty, after giving birth I had PND, and then Peri-menopause hit! Progesterone did save my sanity then, I only discovered it when I was 47. It took 6 months to come right, but then I was only using the recommended amount of 20-40mg/day. I only continued with it as it stopped my hot flushes. I think I would have given up like so many do, if it hadn't been for that. If I ran out they came back, this convinced me to continue. It does take time to come right, and I feel with all the symptoms you have you'll probably need about 400mg/day. It's evident you have a great deal of oestrogen, as the reaction you've had to the progesterone suggests this. Plus you've had a slight improvement too. You still have a cycle, and normally I recommend following it. But in severe cases I don't, and would ask you use it daily, through any bleeding. Your cycle can become disrupted, but a small price to pay to get rid of symptoms. You are using it correctly too, through the day, hourly if need be. But do try to keep to the same amount each day. You mention using 100-200mg/day, but you should have been on either 100mg, or 125mg or 200mg, not varying it at all. It's the only way you'll be able to tell how much you need. I suspect you have a vitamin D deficiency too, have you had a test done? Please do if not, a lack leads to many of the symptoms you have, plus it reduces the benefits of progesterone. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although recent research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. A lack also leads to thyroid disturbances, see here, here and here. Continued below
Nov 22, 2012
 Waiting for the Miracle Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Sage We have a few pages you could look through covering some of your symptoms. Panic attacks and Anxiety, Aggression, Breast Tenderness, headaches and Migraines. The heart palps are caused by oestrogen, it causes prolongation of the QT interval, which results in palpitations, arrhythmia, Torsades de Pointes and sudden death. Whereas progesterone shortens the QT interval, see here, here, here, here, here, here and here. This is why more women get these problems than men, they have very little oestrogen, whereas we have a great deal more. You've certainly done a huge amount of cleansing! But your P:E2 ratio is too low. Although labs give a range of 100-500:1, I feel this is daft as the range is far too large. We've found from Saliva Tests it's best if the ratio is 600:1 and over. It's interesting to me that you say ovulation is bad too. I've found many women suffer round about then. It's always been believed, and still is by everyone including the medical profession, that progesterone is only produced by the corpus luteum after ovulation. But as far back as 1930 it was thought there must be another source. This was confirmed in the 1960's, and re-confirmed in the 1980's, that there is a surge of progesterone about 50 hours prior to ovulation. Continued below
Nov 22, 2012
 Waiting for the Miracle Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Sage This surge comes from the brain, see here, here, here and here. Oestrogen also surges about 50 hours prior to ovulation. Unless there is the progesterone surge too, there is nothing to counter the oestrogen effect. This explains why many women get migraines, seizures, palpitations, panic attacks and asthma attacks around ovulation. The same reasoning can be applied to the worsening of these problems, plus more, during progesterone withdrawal prior to bleeding. If of course ovulation doesn't occur, then symptoms are bad throughout the luteal phase. The exhaustion could in part be due to Insulin Resistance. Have a look through this page, as you might find clues. Please have patience, stick to one daily amount, increasing if symptoms don't go, and then staying on that amount. It is a bumpy ride initially. You might like to read some comments from others using large amounts, see here, here, here and here. Take care Wray
Nov 24, 2012
 Relief !!!!!
by: Sage

Dear Wray,
Thank you so much for your detailed response. I'm finding I do in fact need a HIGH dose. First day- 250 did not relieve symptoms but intensified (estrogen getting stimulated). Day 2 I found relief at 550. By the way I start with 100mg doses and wait then go up from there. It seems like the larger dose gave me definitel relief then estrogen domiance symptoms rose up again. On the 5th day I was at 400mg -divided doses by 1:00 p.m. in the afternoon and just then found relief. I also added Zinc which was helpful as well.
Unfortunately late that afternoon I had a tremendous loss and tradgey happen to one of my beloved pets. STRESS.
I was trying to find my dose and stay there but then with the stress needed considerably more. The total for that day was 1000mg and it helped me get through something I would not have been able to before. What a blessing to have this knowledge at such a time.
Anyway I backed down to 600mg after this event and am still having depression, weepyness, bordering hostility and low energy.
I know part of this is a natural process after a stressful event but having been very estrogen dominant for a long time. I not sure how much is that and how much natural loss and grief.
I needed to dose again today which by evening will go over the 600mg. I'm not to worried but do think I am one of the ones who needs a HIGH dose.
Depression seems to be the last of the estrogen dominace symptoms to be addressed. It does help for sure but I notice the others seem to clear faster.
I will get my Vit D tested early next week. I order my own blood work and get the results emailed directly to me. I will also check my Free T3 as I am working on thyroid as well. I do not want to take too much thyroid as I know the progesterone may take care of this as well.
Do you see people have much luck with Mucuna Pruriens if needed in addition to progesterone?

Thank you so much Wray for sharing yourself with us and making the knowledge and wisdom available to us. I am receiving the help I have desperately needed for many many years. I am also a practitioner and will share this knowledge and my personal experience to help others.

Bless you and thank you
Sage
Nov 26, 2012
 Having a Hard Time
by: Sage

I'm at 1000mg/day at 100mg hourly intervals. It is relieving symptoms but only part of the time and not all of them. It is so hard to do something that seems to be making it worse but all I have to go on is faith that it is part of the process and I have to do it long enough to build up progesterone.
Most of my symptoms are emotional: weepy, depressed, sad, low self-confidence, irritable, no joy and feeling at the end of my rope. This has taken such a toll on my relationship often times I think it would be so much easier on both of us to be separate.
I've been here so long and have done so many things only to have created more imbalance or invested all of myself into something that didn't work.
Today is day 12 of progesterone. I had a sleepless night last night which I haven't had for a long time and yet had the best nap yesterday where I went really deep.
At times when I apply the progesterone I can literally feel in seconds - aches, crying or moodiness go away and other times it seems like its making no difference. I guess this says how estrogen dominant I have been.
I have ordered 20 tubes of Natpro which should be here tomorrow and currently have been using a 10% compounded cream.
Just needing some encouragement.
Sage
Nov 27, 2012
 Relief !!!!!
by: Wray

Hi Sage Well I am so delighted! But so sorry to hear about your tragedy, how I know the feeling. I am happy you started using the high amounts before it happened though, as that's the time when we feel it's benefits the most. Unfortunately people are advised to use such low amounts, they would get none. You are using it as it should be used, as and when needed. Although I advised you to try to stick to the same amount each day, in times like this it really doesn't matter. Progesterone doesn't stop us feeling the pain and grief, but it does lessen the stress response. So you will be feeling a natural grief now, plus oestrogen dominance affects too. Simply because progesterone drops when stressed. But increasing substantially as you did, it would help overcome some of the drop. One can never tell what the mix is. I'm pleased you added the zinc, as this is always low if there's excess oestrogen. This raises copper levels, which suppresses zinc, progesterone does the opposite. Excess copper causes anger, aggression, and psychosis. William Walsh is so good on this, see his papers on the Safe Harbor site. Depression is a tough one, in the early days I used to suggest tryptophan to people who had it. As I found progesterone wasn't sufficient alone, unless using the extremely high amounts Dr Dalton did for her patients with PND and post natal psychosis, ranging from 400-2400mg/day, see here. But I'm cautious about tryp now, as I've found people don't use it correctly. I prefer them to use inositol which helps raise it, or some of the other nutrients. Is this why you asked about the Mucuna Pruriens? I know so little about herbs, beyond how to grow them, one of my past lives I used to farm the culinary ones commercially, I was in my late twenties. Long before I was introduced to progesterone. But I have had no one ask about the Mucuna Pruriens, so can't tell you if they've had success with it or not. But I have had several experiences with the living bean, which we called the Buffalo Bean. It's found extensively in tropical Africa, where I have lived, and it's the most frantic itch I have ever experienced! The bean pods are a beautiful golden colour due to the hairs covering them, but once touched it drives you mad. Even back then I was experimenting with vitamins etc, and I had some powdered, emulsified vitamin E. I found adding this to water and then applying it to the skin was the only thing to stop the itch! Continued below
Nov 27, 2012
 Relief !!!!! Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Sage Apparently the hairs contain serotonin and mucunain which causes the itch. And the beans contain L dopa, serotonin, nicotine and more, an extraordinary plant all round! I'm intrigued about it's use, you evidently know it's properties and how to use it, does this mean you're a herbalist? You have an appropriate name if you are. Bless you for the kind words, I find the work I do fascinating, for instance no one has asked me about the buffalo bean before! And thank you for sharing with others, you might be interested in looking at our page here. I'd be interested to hear about your vitamin D results when you get them. Take care Wray
Nov 27, 2012
 Having a Hard Time
by: Wray

Hi Sage I'm sorry you're struggling so, but you have been through a huge emotional upheaval. So it doesn't surprise me you're battling now. Not to mention all the other trials you've been through, and still have. Please remember to get your vitamin D level up high, it really does help. And consider those other nutrients on the anxiety page, although you've probably tried them all. I find the calming aminos the best, taurine, glycine and tyrosine. Inositol helps too, and the B3. It's evident the progesterone is helping, although only at times. I will be thinking of you. Take care and many blessings Wray
Dec 01, 2012
 Vit D level 38
by: Sage

Hi Wray,
Just wanted to update you. My Vit D test level was 38. So I am supplementing now with Vit D.
I've had 2 days where I actually felt pretty good and even the depression was almost non existant. But then everything returns for another few days off and on but still more difficult and challenging days than better.
I am on day 13 of my cylce believe I ovulated or at least (ovulation time) over the past 2 days. I have been lightly spotting for 3 days which I never have spotted at ovulation or mid month and now have very tender breasts and alot of pressure around uterus/ovarie area and trouble with sleep which are all new - at least for some time. I also was much more hypersensitive, emotional, negative, ect than previous few days. I assume this is the estrogen dominace with just starting progesterone and the rise in estrogen at ovulation. Today is the 15th day of high progesterone doses.
STill at 1000mg/day and did some extra to help with symtpoms past few days. I am sure this is copper toxicity as well. I had many hidden copper indicators on previous hair analysis. It can take copper a few years before even showing up on a hair analysis but there are many combined 'hidden' copper indicators that point to copper toxicity. Mine has never showed an elevated level but I have been dealing with this. Using zinc daily with a few herbs and superfoods for nutrients.
Thank you for being there.
Sage
Dec 02, 2012
 Vit D level 38
by: Wray

Hi Sage Thanks for the feedback, you are having a struggle, I'm so sorry you are. But it's evident the progesterone is helping, it's now a question of time. If your vitamin D was only 38ng/ml I suggest you take 20,000iu's per day for a month, then reduce to 10,000iu's for the next, then 5000iu's for the third month, then have another test done. It might still be low, in which case repeat the above. I feel you need to get your level up as quickly as you can, somewhere between 70-100ng/ml, mine at my last test was 92ng/ml. Interesting you had spotting at ovulation, it can happen, but I've not heard of it starting out of the blue, see here, here and here. Please try rubbing the cream on your breasts, and take a look at our page on Breast Tenderness. I actually think I've given it before. Glad you're taking the zinc, this will help the progesterone. I see I'm advising you about things you already know! I'm interested in the hidden copper indicators, would love to know them when you have the time. I'm still curious about what you use the Mucuna Pruriens for? Please keep in touch. Take care Wray
Dec 05, 2012
 Bloating and Weight Gain
by: LornaDoom

Hi Wray,

I am so glad you are here to help us all through using the natpro. I have been using between 100-200 mg for the last 5 days and I have been experiencing the following:

severe bloating, water retention, edema in the legs, and salty sweet cravings. I even think I put on 6 pounds.

I feel miserable having this PMS issue. I had a hysterectomy 11/2009 but I still have my ovaries, so I still have PMS cycles and honestly think I have PMDD.

MY QUESTION: How much Natpro should I use. Also once I increase the amount, do you think I will be stuck in this crappy oestrogen dominance for months.

I can't afford to gain any more weight. I am at 261 pounds now. Additionally, I am wondering if the Atkins diet a nice supplement to balancing hormones along with Natpro usage? I crave sugars like crazy. Please advise & Thanks in advance! :)
Dec 06, 2012
 Bloating and Weight Gain
by: Wray

Hi LornaDoom I love your pseudonym! And no you won't be caught in the Oestrogen Dominance cycle for months. You are not using any where near enough, I feel you would need about 400mg/day if you say you have severe PMS. The lower amounts are for those with mild symptoms. I've found the worse the symptoms, the more progesterone is needed. Unfortunately, our fat cells secrete oestrogen too, it's not only the ovaries. So the more fat cells we have the more oestrogen we make. It's actually a vicious cycle, as oestrogen stimulates fat cells to multiply. This is one reason you are over weight. The other reason is you probably have a very low vitamin D level, please have a test as soon as you can. A lack of this vitamin causes us to gain weight, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. A lack of vitamin D and excess testosterone and oestrogen causes Insulin Resistance (IR), which you undoubtedly have as you crave sugars. Oestrogen also destabilises our blood glucose, see here. Your testosterone is probably too high, certainly the free testosterone, this hormone causes an increase in visceral fat, see here and here. Not only that but it causes very bad PMS. If bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) testosterone becomes inactive, progesterone raises levels of SHBG, see here, so preventing the rise of free testosterone. Continued below
Dec 06, 2012
 Bloating and Weight Gain Part 2
by: Wray

Hi LornaDoom SHBG drops if sugars are eaten, even those found in all grains, legumes, dairy and sweet starchy fruits and vegetables. Fructose, sucrose and glucose, reduce SHBG by 80, 50 and 40% respectively, see here. Thereby allowing testosterone to rise. It's best to avoid all the foods and sugars mentioned. Wine and beers contain carbs, so it's best to avoid those too. Sugars and large meals also drop progesterone levels, which means SHBG also drops, another vicious cycle, see here. High insulin, which often occurs with IR causes progesterone to drop, see here. So SHBG will drop, and testosterone will rise. Finally they have recently found that many chemicals in our environment cause us to gain weight, they are now known as 'obesogens', see here, here and here. The last paper is very long, enter 'obesogens' into control/find to get to the reference to them. It is possible to reverse IR, large amounts of antioxidants are needed, listed on the IR link I've given above. One essential is to stop your sugar cravings, as this is keeping you in a vicious cycle, the antioxidants are designed to do that. Progesterone will help, as it suppresses excess oestrogen which de-stabilises blood glucose, causing the cravings. It also suppresses testosterone, which causes the bad PMS, abdominal fat and IR. But I feel you will need at least 400mg/day to begin with. It's essential to get your vitamin D level up high. Unless you know your current level it's difficult to know how much you should take to do this. So please have that test done. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Continued below
Dec 06, 2012
 Bloating and Weight Gain Part 3
by: Wray

Hi LornaDoom Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although recent research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Atkins is good, but the level of carbs is too low. I find the Paleo Diet more palatable, similar to Atkins but higher in the good carbs. By good carbs I mean green leafy veggies, any other green veggie i.e. asparagus, celery, spring onions, broccoli, cauliflower, etc. If you can increase your protein intake, and eat the leafy veggies I think you'll find your blood glucose stabilising. A short story, I took a friend to lunch a great deal heavier than you. She ordered spicy chicken and rice. When it arrived there were four pieces of chicken on a bed of rice, she said she'd never eat it all. I asked her to experiment, and eat only the chicken, and then start on the rice. Well she only managed 3 pieces of chicken and no rice. At about 5 that afternoon she turned to me very surprised and said she hadn't felt at all hungry all afternoon. Normally by about 3 to 3.30pm she would have needed bread or some starchy carb. Now if she had eaten the rice with the chicken, she would probably have left two pieces of chicken but eaten all the rice. This would have caused her to feel her usual hunger, as the carbs cause blood glucose to drop. You'll find the link to the Paleo diet on our Nutrition page. Thanks for the kind words! Take care Wray
Dec 09, 2012
 Thank You
by: LornaDoom

Hi Wray,

Thanks for all of the awesome information and for your dedicated support to us. I have increased to 400 mg and started taking Vitamin D3. I remember having it tested a few years ago and it was extremely low, so I am pretty sure it still is.

I will give these things a try and I will let you know how I fare in about a month.

Okay ciao for now and thanks again! :D
Dec 11, 2012
 Thank You
by: Wray

Hi LornaDoom Thanks for the kind words! If your vitamin D level was low a few years ago, and you haven't taken any to increase it, then it will still be low, if not lower. But please have another test done, it's impossible without one to work out how much you should be taking to get your level up quickly. And I do appreciate feedback, thanks! Take care Wray
Dec 12, 2012
 Didn't Post on this page
by: Sage

Wray,
I'm sorry my latest post was not posted on this page rather the forum home page. I know its important for you to see the history.
Sorry,
Dec 14, 2012
 Didn't Post on this page
by: Wray

Hi Sage Thanks for pointing this out! But now I know it's you and not another Sage that's suddenly appeared, I can always refer back to this page. Take care Wray
Feb 11, 2013
 Information on Hidden Copper Toxicity
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray,
I'm sorry I am so long in getting this information to you. I've been on progesterone now for a steady 3 months at 1000mg per day.
I am slowly backing down and so far doing very good. I have had some other inbalances that have greatly contributed to the distressing symptoms I have had for so long. Addressing estrogen domiance is of utmost importance and a huge piece of the puzzle.

But I wanted to get this information to you because you asked some time ago. I am sending you a link directly to ARL - Analytical Reasearch Lab who does the lab testing for Hair Mineral Analysis.
A wonderful extremely effective tool for getting to the core of long term health issues and not so long term.
Anyway here is the article . . . . about half way down you will see the hidden copper indicators.

http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CopperToxDoc.htm

I'm sure you will find this interesting as copper toxicity is prevelant with estrogen domiance and often needs to be addressed to fully recover from symptoms.

I will check in soon. Hope all is well with you.
Blessings,
Sage
Feb 13, 2013
 Information on Hidden Copper Toxicity
by: Wray

Hi Sage Bless you for this. I've read the entire page, very interesting. I've also saved the link, as the only hair analysis lab I know about and recommend is Trace Elements. They don't have as much info as the ARL site does. As the site says copper toxicity is overlooked, or not known about at all, so is never checked! I'm sure I had it, as I had depression at puberty, post natal and during peri-menopause. According to William Walsh these periods all have high copper levels, due to high oestrogen, low progesterone. So happy you're doing well, and now able to reduce the progesterone. That's the hardest part isn't it, finding all the imbalances and correcting them, which domino fell first, that set the others off. Would love you to keep in touch. Blessings to to you, take care Wray

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