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Pippa

Hello,
I am in early menopause and my symptoms are insomnia and night sweats. The hot flashes (day)are bearable and I think getting better. My question is how long should I take sustained (400 mg) levels of P without seeing any effects. If I continue to take 400 mg of P (10 days and no effect on these specific problems mentioned) and my body gets used to this level how will I ever be able to get off this amount and still have a reduction in Night sweats etc. Also, I am running out of places to rub 4 .5 tsp of P cream, would you suggest that I use an applicator and use most of this amount in the vagina - it would be easier. Also, why do you not sell an applicator for this purpose (or any measuring device) so that I know I am getting the right amount. I feel like I am winging it with the teaspoon sizing/measuring.
Thanks

Comments for Pippa

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Jun 13, 2013
 Pippa
by: Wray

Hi Pippa I'm not sure if this is the same Pippa here. The symptoms sound very similar. But you have asked different questions which I'll answer. You say you've only been using it for 10 days and no effect. It can take 3-6 months before any relief is found. Many women find they need more progesterone too, see here, here, here and here. The body doesn't become used to it, it's a question of overcoming any Oestrogen Dominance with what ever amount it takes. And then once stable reducing it very slowly. It's essential to make sure your vitamin D levels are high too, do you know your current level? If not please have a test done. A lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. Some women have found taking antioxidants too have helped the night sweats and Hot Flushes. Others have found the amino acid GABA helps. You say you are using 400mg/day progesterone or 4.5 tsp of cream. This means the strength of the cream you're using is 1.7% or it contains 17mg/ml of cream. It's not very strong, so you will need a great deal of cream. I suggest you apply it at least 3 times a day if not more, you will need to spread it over the entire body too. I would recommend using it in your vagina too, it's best at night so it don't leak out. A finger or applicator can be used for this. We don't supply an applicator, and have considered a pump action container, but it would increase the cost. Most people use a metric measuring spoon until they get used to seeing the amount. Take care Wray
Jun 13, 2013
 Menopausal insomnia
by: Pippa

Hello again,
Thank you for your suggestions. I await an order of your cream but using Pro gest (easiest to buy in Bermuda ). I have started to take extra vit D even though we have glorious sunshine most of the year, I try to stay out of the sun so I do not end up looking like a Shar Pei by sixty! I thought the hot flashes were bad but the insomnia is by far my worst ailment. I am pretty sure it is estrogen excitability. When I I was cycling I would always have one night of little sleep just before my period commenced. Now I experience this insomnia every night and I can draw the correlation between dropping P just before my period and this ongoing insomnia.. What do you think? Anyhow, I have had acupuncture for 15 months with no relief as well as all differnent Chinese formulas so I would be willing to try the GABA you recommended if you feel this would be the most beneficial addition to my supplement regime. My doctor has given me Trazodone for sleep (do not take very often) but the P cream gives me the same amount of sleep (4/5 hours per night) and I feel better taking it. So your top picks for increased sleep would be appreciated. Thanks
Jun 14, 2013
 Menopausal insomnia
by: Wray

Hi Pippa I love your Char Pei comment! It's a question of balance when in the sun, it is vital, and not just for vitamin D, but for nitric oxide (NO) too. It's recommended we stay in the sun with no sunscreen on for a minimum of 10 minutes if very fair, skin type 1. And up to 2 hours if very dark, skin type 6. This should be during the hours of 10am to 2pm, and then apply sunscreen if intending to stay out longer. Dermatologists have made us fearful of the sun, but one is changing his mind, due to his work on NO, see here and here. We can make NO from the amino acid arginine, but it's vital for the health of the skin too. The sun plays a major role in it's synthesis in the skin. It's such a small molecule they've found NO is absorbed through the skin and augments that made from arginine. If arginine is in short supply, or the enzymes needed for the conversion, levels of NO drop. Please have a vitamin D test done, and take no less than 5000iu per day. 10,000iu if your level is low, and yours probably will be if you avoid the sun. I would hazard a guess this is why you have insomnia. I gave those papers on the other page you have. Insomnia is my worst! I throw the works at people, mostly women, which makes me suspect it is oestrogen 'excitability' as you aptly put it. Oestrogen stimulates glutamate, our most excitatory neurotransmitter, see here. It increases free radicals, plus destroying beta-endorphin neurons in the brain, these produce endorphins which promote a feeling of well being and relaxation. Beta-endorphins also appear to boost the immune system, protecting against cancer, see here. This paper says "Although it is widely accepted that exposure to estradiol throughout life contributes to reproductive aging.... Recent evidence ..... of chronic estradiol-mediated accelerated reproductive senescence now suggests such a hypothesis. It has been shown that chronic estradiol exposure results in the destruction of greater than 60% of all beta-endorphin neurons in the arcuate nucleus .....This loss of opioid neurons is prevented by treatment with antioxidants indicating that it results from estradiol-induced formation of free radicals", see here. Continued below
Jun 14, 2013
 Menopausal insomnia Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Pippa Whereas progesterone protects against glutamate toxicity, it also increases BDNF (brain-derived neuroptrophic factor) in itself protective, see here and here. Excess glutamate increases levels of calcium, an excitatory mineral. Progesterone also protects against calcium induced excitotoxicity, see here. So magnesium is a calming mineral, it opposes calcium, also a co-factor for vitamin D, try 800mg/day. Inositol is another which helps sleep, try 4000mg/day. The amino acids taurine, glycine and GABA all help calm. Taurine 1000-2000mg/day, glycine about 2000mg/day, but GABA a max of 500mg/day, but start off on 100mg/day. Too much causes the same symptoms you're trying to get rid of. Another women, Staci, has written in recently with her mix, you might like to read it here. It's the last entry of Jun 13th. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Jun 19, 2013
 Salvia testing
by: Pippa

Hello Wray,
I am trying to get straight, how salvia tests work when it comes to estrogen levels. My Estradiol was 3.8 pg/ml and my progesterone was 1313 pg/ml (345:1 ratio / March) So at that point in time I was not estrogen dominant although still had hot flashes/night sweats and insomnia etc. (FYI I am thin – not much fat in which to make estrogen!)
Am I correct in thinking that my estrogen level could be higher because I also have estrone and estriol circulating?
Also, would this Estradiol level include any or all xenoestrogens or, are these estrogens working to increase estrogen in another way which would not show up in a salvia test? I am questioning whether my estradiol level quoted on my test is going to be a good indication of all estrogen in my body (at that point in time) realizing that Estradiol is the predominant estrogen?
Also, how quickly can a person become estrogen dominant? Could I reverse those above levels overnight with say, a large meal of estrogenic foods, or does it take longer? Or, would it take stopping the P cream for a few weeks to create estrogen dominance (using my levels above)? I have a very clean diet but it seems all the foods that I eat are high in phytoestrogens – go figure!
Also, I know you recommend a ration of 600: 1 to feel well, I gather this is why I still have my menopause symptoms? I keep reading that with really bad menopause symptoms you could supplement with a small amount of estrogen (estriol ) every other day. I know you are going to recommend sticking with the progesterone cream in higher dosages because my symptoms verify that I am estrogen dominant (but my test levels did not reflect this). I am going to keep taking the progesterone at higher dosages. I am also reassessing the need for additional salvia tests. My doctor prescribed Estriol vaginal cream but I have refused to use it so far, (breast cancer risks in family) but really I am contemplating it for quality of sex life. However, I appreciate this will also raise my E levels (even though they tell you that the estrogen in these types of products is negligible) what do you think?
Thank you for answering these questions
Pippa
Jun 27, 2013
 Salvia testing
by: Wray

Hi Pippa Yes your ratio is 345:1, and labs give a huge range of 100:1 up to 500:1 as 'normal'. I have yet to find one woman with a ratio of 100:1 that feels well. And I would hazard a guess your ratio needs to be higher too, if you still have those symptoms. I use the 600:1 as I know those women did feel well. You are right about the oestrogens. Unfortunately only oestradiol is checked, never the other two, and never the oestrogen mimics, of which there are over 100 in the environment now, see Our Stolen Future. We do have a page on Hormone Testing you could look through which shows the ranges. You'll notice oestradiol is low in menopausal women, and yet it's still the only oestrogen that's checked! The quickest way to become oestrogen dominant is to use too little progesterone. Or to reduce the amount being used, or to stop it. It would occur within a few hours. Food would take longer. All foods contain phytoestrogens, they are impossible to avoid. The following papers list the phytoestrogen content of foods, with seeds, legumes and grains having the highest content, see here. Even foods of animal origin contain them, see here. All oilseeds contain phytoestrogens too. I don't recommend any oestrogen I've seen nothing but trouble from it. I also don't think the risks are worth it, although a study did find oestriol to be safe, see here. Try the progesterone in your vagina as I suggested, I use it there, I know many women do. If breast cancer runs in the family, I would suggest rather that a vitamin D deficiency runs in the family! See here, here, here, here and here. These are excellent videos to watch too, see here, here and here. Sorry about the delay in replying, but we've been having server site problems, which now seemed to be fixed. Take care Wray
Jun 27, 2013
 Meno symptoms
by: Pippa

Hello Wray,
Thanks for your comments. I have just started Natpro and it is superior to the cream I was using. I am now taking 166 mg (1 tsp)in the morning and another at night and am already experiencing estro dominance symptoms and more hot flashes. (I hope I am correct in my calculations that a tube will last me 5 days at these dosages)? I will add a bit more each evening in the vagina so that I am around 400mg a day. I would like to clarify that I will at some point be able to survive on a smaller more manageable dose each day. Is there any way the body may become reliant on this level of P cream. I am concerned I might be prolonging the inevitable process (nasty meno symptoms) whereby my body would have to naturally adjust to the lesser levels of sex hormones.
thanks Pippa
Jun 28, 2013
 Meno symptoms
by: Wray

Hi Pippa Thanks so much for telling me that, it's always good to know. Yes one tube will last you five days at that rate. Pity about those symptoms, it's my worst aspect of progesterone therapy. And yes you will be able to reduce the amount very slowly once symptoms have gone. There isn't one woman who's written in who has found she needs to stay forever at a high amount. They have all been able to reduce. The whole idea is to suppress the excess oestrogen, and only high amounts do that. But once they are then there's no point in using too much. And are you taking vitamin D? As high levels of that ensure the full benefit of progesterone, if too low it barely works, see here, here and here. I'm at a friend's house and there's no internet her, so I'm working offline and can't check whether I've told you about vitamin D. Three other things you could consider to reduce the oestrogen, or make less potent are DIM, calcium D-glucarate and milk thistle. DIM is regarded as an anti-oestrogen. Oestrogen is broken down into 2 principle metabolites, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1) and 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1). 16alpha-OHE1 is regarded as a potent oestrogen, whereas 2-OHE1 is a weaker oestrogen. In some studies DIM (3,3'-Diindolylmethane) increased levels of 2-OHE1, by doing so it also increases the ratio of 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1. Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, this enzyme is produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Silymarin from milk thistle also inhibits beta-glucuronidase, plus it helps the liver detox. Take care Wray
Jun 28, 2013
 menopause symptoms
by: PIppa

Hi,
Yes, I have been taking Vit D 5000 every day since you suggested it. Does it take a while to build up? I am figuring that since I do live in a very sunny climate that I will also be getting some D through skin. May be I should take 10,000 every other day? Getting testing will be a huge palova in Bermuda. If I want saliva testing I have to send away to the US as no one does it in Bermuda so I think I will have a hassle with vit D testing. My endocrinologist told me to stop taking Estro Block (Dim) last year as she said my estrogen was already low! (she had a run in with my acupuncturist -she really is out of the loop)! I think I will start on Milk thistle. I was drinking a lot of dandelion tea for liver but it has some estrogenic properties so I have stopped it. I have to report that the last 3 nights my sleep has improved tremendously. (almost scared to report as invariably things turn around for the worst)! For the last 2 weeks I have been taking every night: GABA 250 (now on 500 mg) & 4000 inositol & 1000/2000 tyrosine but I think the improvement might just be from the Natpro and the higher dosages. Or do you think it takes GABA etc. 2 weeks to take affect? Any other tips for scalp and thinning hair. I have episodes of itchy scalp (right where it is thinning) which is scary - thanks
Pippa
Jun 29, 2013
 menopause symptoms
by: Wray

Hi Pippa Yes it can take a while, depends on how low your levels are. 5000iu is a maintenance dose, it doesn't raise levels much if at all. You said earlier that you stay out of the sun as you didn't want to end up looking like a share pei, so you won't be getting any vitamin D. These are the best sites for info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc, Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L, and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. Although the minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Birmingham Hospital are the cheapest for a test, you get the results back by email. Delighted the sleep has improved, all those nutrients would have helped, as much as I'd like it to be solely from the Natpro, I feel they have helped too. Some of the nutrients work almost immediately, some take longer, and of course it depends on the individual, i.e. are there any other confounding factors. We do have a page on Hair Loss you could look through, vitamin D is essential. So too is inositol so you should see an improvement, but very slow of course. Itchiness could be a lack of vitamin B2, it wouldn't harm to try some. Take care Wray

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