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confused with where to go from here

by Lindsay
(UK)

Hi Wray, I have started another topic to yet again bend your ear. Im so grateful I have someone to help me here as Im sure I would give up without you!

As you will recall Im using 17.5mg of natpro daily and struggling on and off with estrogen dominance. I guess Im asking for reassurance that Im doing the right thing really.

I have been using this level for 6 weeks now and seemed to level out for a few days after the inital onset of estrogen dominance, infact I started to feel really good.Then for some reason the symptoms return. I have increased natpro in desperation by another 1mg or so a day. this again seemed to help initially but a few days later Im back with the symptoms again. is this actually doing me any good whatsoever? as ive mentioned before at this amount its very expensive. is my body just a constant battle between estrogen and progesterone? I dont seem to be able to make progesterone dominant, whatever I do.

I am taking Vit D at 10,000 to 20,000ius daily and in the process of having a test done. I am taking glutamine at your suggestion, to no noticable affect.

I have read your other posts saying its ok to apply as and when and there is no set dose but doesnt this just produce symptoms as you increase one day and decrease the next? Also, I dont want to wait til i have terrible insomnia, morning anxiety, bloating, irritation and weepyiness before I increase the cream again. I expected to find a level where most symptoms would ease and after a while I would be able to reduce the cream to a more affordable level and use it around my cycle so I could try to conceive again.

Obviously Im finding life difficult at the moment with the constant return of these symptoms and dont feel im benefitting at all as each time I increase I only get a few days relief.Its like my body rejects it! Infact life is a real struggle now, so much than before when I would get these symptoms maybe a few days a month and know they would dissapate in a few days. Now I dont know when they will occur, when they will dissapate or how to carry on to achieve my aims. Can you advise what I should do? Can I start using the cream around my cycle again so I only get this half a month?

What is the quickest route to make progesterone dominant and be able to reduce to using a smaller more affordable amount around my cycle?

I do feel like I am repeating myself a lot so apologies for this. I believe estrogen is my problem as is demonstrated by the dominance but I really dont need any more proof of this!!!!

Thanks again, I think I would give up without your encouragement and guidance as Im sure many others would have too.

Comments for confused with where to go from here

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Oct 28, 2011
 Hope this helps
by: Casey

I hope you don't mind that I'm posting but I feel I may be of some help or maybe just more comfort. I'm not sure how old you are so this may not even pertain but I started experiencing everything that you are and more..started in my mid 30's. Over the next several years the symptoms just got worse. I was using natural progesterone cream but not in a high enough dosage and not daily. I was in perimenopause and didn't know a thing about...well, I know a lot about it now. I too would feel good for awhile then all hell would break loose again. I know this frustration very well!!! It took several months to get things evened out. Besides the natural progesterone cream and supplements (I also was very low in magnesium, have you looked into that?), I also had to revamp my diet as some of the symptoms were associated with low blood sugar. I eat as organic as possible, i drink a green drink with added protein every morning and just before I go to bed - this helped tremendously with the morning anxiety. I also eat every 2-3 hours. I always carry a protein bar, almonds, etc. with me at all times. I hope this helps a little. Take care, Casey
Oct 30, 2011
 natural production of progesterone
by: Lindsay

Thanks Casey, its nice that you took the time to comment. It does make me realise its not just me or I am imaginging it all! Whats the green protein drink called? i might give it a go.

I have been considering the return of symptoms and I think it may be due to using the cream continuously through my cycle. I have increased natpro now to 20ml per day as have realised due to not ovulating I wont be producing any progesterone naturally so maybe thats why the symptoms returned. In the first few weeks I was supplementing my own progesterone, then when i didnt ovulate and produce any the level dropped. I would like to know what Wray thinks to my theory!!??

So in that case, surely its better to use it around my cycle so I can supplement the natural production?

I think I would be happier doing this (and be able to maintain it financially, i never expected to have to use over 2 tubes a week!) but dont know how to go about it. Im using 20ml per day, every day and dont fancy dropping from 20ml to 0ml in one day. Is there a best way to go from using this amount daily to cycle it without suffereing too much? I read on the estrogen dominance page that if you experience estrogen dominance you have 2 choices, 1) increase natpro and persevere or 2) reduce the cream, significantly at first and then gradually increase over the next month or two.

Can i reduce to half the amount and wiat til I ovulate? I will remain on 20ml daily until i hear from Wray as I really dont want to do any harm or hinder any progess i may have made already.

many thanks for any advice
Oct 31, 2011
 confused with where to go from here
by: Wray

Hi Lindsay It's essential for me to have continuity in the comments, as I simply can't remember what I told you, or what you said in previous posts. I could look up all your comments in the search field, but unfortunately I just don't have the time to do this. I'm relieved you are taking the vitamin D, and a very good dose too, in fact the latest research indicates 10,000iu's should be the minimum, see here. Please let me know your results. Please have patience with the glutamine, it's not an overnight fix, and are you taking 4000mg/day? It's safe to increase to 8000mg/day, I often do this if my blood glucose is unstable. Did you look at our Anxiety page, did you consider taking any of the nutrients listed? Some of them are very effective at reducing your symptoms. For instance inositol re-sensitises the serotonin receptors, so effectively raising levels. Vitamin B3 is effective for depression and anxiety, GABA too. Please consider taking them. I still believe you are suffering from post natal depression, mine went on for 4 years too. I did tell you serotonin drops after birth, along with progesterone. Please consider taking tryptophan, the precursor amino acid. I've found it more effective than 5-HTP which you will probably be offered. But please follow the instructions on the anxiety page, people who don't find it doesn't work. Did you read the comments from women using ultra high amount I gave you, or maybe I didn't, as I can't remember? Here they are in case I didn't give them, see here, here, here, here and here. Annette went up to 1000mg/day, plus she took a booster dose of vitamin D of 100,000iu's for 6 days. You could try this too, although it is costly as you've pointed out. Please read the anxiety page, I'm sure you'll find help there. Take care Wray
Oct 31, 2011
 Hope this helps
by: Wray

Hi Casey Thanks so much for encouraging Lindsay, we need all the support we can get from each other, as little comes from the medical profession. You are so right too, about the same symptoms being experienced by low blood glucose. This is one reason I suggested Lindsay take glutamine before going to bed, to stop it dropping too low. Unfortunately as with all natural things, it does take time to work. Take care Wray
Nov 01, 2011
 Ovulation?
by: Lindsay

Hi Wray

Thanks for your comments, yet again.

I haven?t the results of the Vit D test yet, but will let you know when I do. I am taking 4000mg glutamine on a night and have now received the energy formula (super quick from the states!). I have most of the nutrients you suggest on the anxiety page but have noticed that the energy formula contains a lot of these, (Glutamine, Taurine,B3, B6, Folic Acid, Choline, Inositol, D3) so I will take the formula in the morning and add any extras from the supplements I bought. I am waiting delivery on the Tryptophan so will add that when it arrives. I am struggling to find the GABA. I am assuming the others will help without the gaba for the time being? Is there any possible side effects from these supplements? Can I take too much?

To be honest, I don?t think I am still suffering pnd. I haven?t had symptoms like this for about 3 years and they have only returned with the natpro. I was feeling so good on it but think using it through my cycle has stopped my natural progesterone production by stopping ovulation. I believe that as that occurred I obviously had a severe drop in progesterone and now only rely on the natpro. Can you give me your thoughts on that?

I did increase to 4 teaspoons daily but this is when the anxiety hit so reduced back down to 3.5 teaspoons assuming it was estrogen dominance (again!) and 3.5 teaspoons is what my body has been used to these last couple of months. Will continuing to use natpro at this amount gradually increase the amount in my body and then the symptoms will improve even without my own natural progesterone?

How can I get to ovulating again and therefore producing progesterone naturally?

Many thanks for all your support, and Annette and Casey too!! Sometimes its easy to feel on your own. Thanks ladies
Nov 06, 2011
 Hope this helps
by: Casey

Hi again Lindsay. I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I have seen your other posts and can so relate to what you are going through and all of the questions/misunderstanding. I, too, sent Wray several emails asking some of the very same questions you are. I would encourage to learn everything possible about estrogen dominance and nutrition. It's hard to trust others but please do. There are so many that have been where you are. I know it's pretty overwhelming right now but as you get things under control it will all make sense. At that point in my recovery is when I wanted to learn more about nutrition, especially minerals. My current naturopath is the first to test any of this and found I was extremely low in magnesium...magnesium helps to calm the nerves. I am still learning and refer to this website often as things change. I always forget that stress (good or bad) depletes progesterone. I start feeling symptoms and think Oh My God, Now What?

I refer to this site and remember I should increase my progesterone until the stress is gone or I've got the progesterone dominant again...sometimes taking a few months to do so. My green protein drink is one that I have made up. My diet wasn't and sometimes still isn't great (definately better than it was though) so I supplement. In water, I use 4 tablespoons of hemp protein (fiber and protein), a good squeeze of Strawberry Banana Omega Swirl by Barlean's, a 1/2 scoop of Perfect Food (Super Green Formula) by Garden of Life . If you need a little extra flavor, blend in some fruit. I blend this up every morning and night right before I go to bed. I also take a good multi-vitamin (Spectrum 2-C), 6000-10000 mg of vitamin D3, 500-1000 mg of magnesium, a stress forumala called Rhodiola Ashwagandha Ginseng Complex, DIM and MACA for additional hormonal balance. I get most of these supplements on-line from Swanson Vitamins (it is much cheaper than the grocery/natural food stores). I also take a scoop of Calcium Bentonite Clay or Diatomaceous Earth (DE) each day to get my minerals. I know it sounds like a lot but it has helped me greatly and we don't really get the nutrition from our food sources as we did in the past. Please keep up the fight as it will get better. Take care, Casey
Nov 08, 2011
 Hope this helps
by: Wray

Hi Casey You're so encouraging, it does take time, patience and much frustration. I developed eczema on my hands, it took me several years to discover I was allergic to sulphur dioxide. The reason for the delay in finding it out was it goes into so many foods and drinks. I eliminated one, but still had it, I eliminated another and it still persisted. I don't drink wine now, because it contains it, even the organic wines, vinegar too I avoid unless home made. Dried fruit too which I love, that is disastrous! So I look for fruit which doesn't have it or dry my own. You are so lucky to have found a naturopath who's tested your mineral status. Magnesium is often low in our soils, therefore it's low in our food. It's a vital co-factor for vitamin D too. Your green drink sounds amazing! Take care Wray
Nov 08, 2011
 Ovulation?
by: Wray

Hi Lindsay I'm delighted you are trying the energy formula, as with all natural supplements, it does take time to work, so please have patience. There is 4000mg/dose of glutamine in the formula, but initially I feel you could take the glutamine you bought at night only. This will give you about 8000mg/day, which is fine. I often take this much. Don't bother too much about the GABA, as you might have read on the web page I gave you, it's a difficult one to administer. Too much and symptoms can come back. Taurine is excellent for calming too, and there are no problems taking that. The levels of the ingredients in the formula are all high, so apart from the glutamine, taurine and vitamin D, I would advise caution on the others. But as you have them, and it's a pity to waste them, use them up, but don't take the formula on those days. Using progesterone daily will stop ovulation if the amount is 200mg/day and over, as yours is. But the amount we make in any one day during the luteal phase only amounts to 20-40mg. This was evidently not helping you at all. Your progesterone level will increase, but don't forget if you should stop it or take a break, the level will drop again after about 13 hrs. The idea behind the progesterone is not only to supply it, but to suppress any excess oestrogen. Once you are stable, you should be able to take a break without getting a bad reaction. But as I said in a previous reply, on another page, I don't believe your problem is only a lack of progesterone, but the other nutrients too. We do have info on how to regulate the cycle again on our page How to use progesterone cream. Take care Wray
Nov 08, 2011
 anxiety
by: Lindsay

Thanks Wray. I am using the energy formula on a morning and finding it beneficial, it does help me focus and give me a boost for the morning. Will the supplements in this formula help me through the night if I use it in the morning? I use the glutamine on an evening with Vit D3. I did purchase some tryptophan but feel weary about using this, even though my anxiety usually appears early morning.

My Vitamin D3 results came back as 25-hydroxyvitamin D 3: 176.9nmol/l and 25-hydroxyvitamin D 2: 2.8nmol/L. I assume from your previous posts that this is a high level. Can I take too much vitamin D?

I’m still having anxiety attacks that appear suddenly and then just disappear. They are very strange, more like a physical reaction rather than the head panic I used to experience. Almost as if I am withdrawing from a drug or similar (not that I have much experience of this). I think that increasing natpro to 4 teaspoons and then back down to 3.5 teaspoons caused the initial onset of the anxiety and was a reaction to this plus the fact that I didn’t ovulate and produce my own progesterone. I am still confused about this and very worried that I have made a mistake by using the cream through my cycle rather than around it. I am still using 3.5 teaspoons daily as I daren’t decrease for fear of these anxiety attacks.

I apologise if I am repeating myself, but I find my worrying about this is not helping my anxiety and often the cause of it. I am concerned that my symptoms will get worse in a couple of weeks when I don’t ovulate again and therefore don’t produce progesterone again.

So if you could confirm for me that I should stick to the current dose every day, my symptoms should ease and my progesterone levels will rise to a point where I can reduce natpro without any significant side effects?

Many thanks for all your support
Nov 14, 2011
 bleeding
by: Lindsay

Hi again Wray, an update to my situation. I think the symptoms were starting to settle this last week and I was feeling more positive. However, I have today started bleeding, 2 weeks after my last period. this is very draining and brings with it symptoms of anxiety and hot sweats and nausea again.

is this something that will settle? Should I be concerned? Also, I would appreciate a reply to how I can get my cycle back asap. I do want to ovulate again and feel using natpro around my cycle is the best way to go for me. I darent reduce the amount Im using at the moment for fear of a return of symptoms. Your page on reducing the cream is informative but by how much should I start reducing and how often?

many thanks
Nov 17, 2011
 anxiety
by: Wray

Hi Lindsay I think it would be best if you contacted someone in the UK, then at least you can chat about your problems. Her name is Julienne and her web site is here. She has contact details on the site. Take care Wray

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