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Cant sleep a week before period!!!!


(Kelz)

Hi Wray, you have helped me a lot in the past but Im still finding that I can hardly sleep a week before my period even if I cover my body head to toe in progesterone that week. Im also a little unsure of how to measure out the Natpro accurately, I assume Im taking about 200-300mg per day although I do find it makes me a feel a bit tired and groggy and when I take less I feel a bit more refreshed the next day.
Can you give me any advice on the bad week I get and why it might be happening. I just start to feel right then that week of no sleep comes around again so Im stuck in a terrible cycle of this.
Thanks again for you time and I have recommeded Natpro to many people and some of them are now using it.
Kelz

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Dec 17, 2012
 Cant sleep a week before period!!!!
by: Wray

Hi Kelz It's good to hear from you again, even if you have a problem! I'm sorry the insomnia is still bothering you. The best way to measure is with a kitchen measuring spoon. Some of them come in ml measurements, which makes it easier. 1ml contains 33.3mg progesterone. So if you're guessing 200mg, you would be using 6ml of cream, or 1 1/5th tsp. The 300mg would be 9ml or 1 4/5th tsp. Assuming the tsp to be 5ml of course! We do have a chart at the bottom of our page How to use progesterone cream. If you find the 200-300mg making you tired and groggy, why not use less during the month. Then the last week ramp it up considerably and see if that helps. It could be you need GABA. Progesterone helps sleep by activating the GABA receptors, see here, here and here. But if there's insufficient GABA, progesterone is not going to be as affective. You could also be low in dopamine, this neurotransmitter is also involved in sleep. The precursor to dopamine is tyrosine, you could try taking some. There's info about both aminos on our Anxiety page. Why it's happening to you is difficult to say, but it seems your oestrogen could be rising too high, and is affecting even the high amount of progesterone you're using. Oestrogen peaks mid-luteal phase, along with progesterone. I've just skimmed through the comments you made and my replies on your other page here. I see vitamin D mentioned and inositol. Did you try either of them? Because I saw your vitamin D was low, and that's so important for sleep, see here and here. Did the inositol not help? It could be that you simply need more progesterone. Continued below
Dec 17, 2012
 Cant sleep a week before period!!!! Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kelz You might like to see these comments here, here, here and here. If you try any of the above ideas, do let me know if they work, and which one too! It's best you try one at a time, or you will be left wondering which one helped you. I hope you've been back to Rarotonga since our last conversation. Does your sleep improve once on the island? Bless you for passing on the word about progesterone! Take care Wray
Dec 17, 2012
 Can't sleep
by: Anonymous

Hi,

I have also had sleep issues. I had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep through the night. What has worked for me is Acient Minerals brand bath flakes. I put 1 cup full in warm, not hot, water in a plastic dish sink pan. I soak my feet in it as I watch some TV at night before bed for 30 minuets. You will sleep great. Give it 2 or 3 days if it doea not work the first night. Do not substitute with Epsom salts. That is a different type of magnesium and is not as well metabolized and will not work as quickly. Acient minerals is available thru amazon. I buy in the 32 lb bulk size and it is almost 1/2 the price per pound that way. Oral magnesium will not work as well and takes 6 months or more to see results. Oral doses can also cause diarrhea. Not a pleasant side effect. Taking magnesium through the skin is the quickest (to see problems go away) and best absorbed method. Most people are deficient in magnesium as well. It's a wonderful mineral we all need. Helps with weight loss and stress too. There are other brands of magnesium bath flakes. They are all good. Acient Minerals in bulk was the cheapest so that is the brand I chose.

If you choose to try it and it works for you please comment back about it. The magnesium bath flakes are in the small group of suplements that have helped me with my problems. Natpro being number one and vitamin D.
Dec 19, 2012
 Can't sleep
by: Wray

Hi there Thanks so much for mentioning this to Kelz. There are just too many things for me to remember! I should make a list of what helps sleep, I have done a page on nutrients which help depression and anxiety. So maybe a sleep page would be a good idea, there are too many with sleep issues. And yes magnesium is very good for sleep, and you are right magnesium is low in most of us. Our soils are depleted in it, so our food is low in it, so most of us have too much calcium, or rather too low a level of magnesium to balance the calcium. Calcium and magnesium oppose each other. Calcium, amongst many other things, contracts muscle. Whereas magnesium relaxes it, and we all need relaxing. Ancient Minerals is good, they use magnesium chloride (MgCl). Epsom Salts is magnesium sulphate (MgSO4), and it is absorbed well through the skin, see here. In fact I went on the Ancient Minerals website and found the very same paper mentioned on it! This is their link to the study here. You'll have to scroll down to 'Dr. R.H. Waring'. I put 2-3 handfuls of Epsom salts in my bath every night. I buy it in 25kg (55lb) sacks from a farmer's co-op, very cheap that way. The MgCl is 25.528% Mg, and the MgSO4 is 20.192% Mg, so the chloride has more Mg in it, so would be more effective if using the same amount. I feel the MgSO4 would be less costly as it's used by farmers's, the MgCl is not. I must try your idea too, putting a cupful in a foot bath, adding essential oils good for sleep would help too. These are Lavender, Valerian, Vetiver, Roman Chamomile, Sandalwood, Marjoram. So pleased the Natpro is helping you, and very happy you're finding the vitamin D helps too. Take care Wray
Dec 29, 2012
 Vit d, insomnia, headaches
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray, Ive decided to go to a natural hormone specialist here in Australia and get some more tests done as I know the progesterone helps but theres still a major problem of the no sleep and I think if it was just magnesium being the problem I wouldnt sleep at all whether its only a week before period and a few days after which I have severe insomnia. I have been back on the Vitamin D and it seems to have made it even worse as havent slept in over two weeks now and major headaches every day so maybe it is making the progesterone work better so estrogen has also spiked trying to take over again. Im finding it all very difficult to figure out so I think I will go to the lady whose meant to be one of the best natural hormone doctors in Australia. I will also look into the other factors you think it may be. The adrenal fatigue is also true with me but Im not sure how to get this corrected can you let me know what the best way is to do this.
Thanks again for your time, cant thank you enough for all your useful links that I always find time to read through.
Kelz
Dec 29, 2012
 Vit d, insomnia, headaches
by: Wray

Hi Kelz You are right about the magnesium, the sleep problem being only during your last week and few days after bleeding. Which of course points to high oestrogen, but why it's not being suppressed by progesterone puzzles me. Did you try the GABA and inositol? There has to be some other factor which eludes me, tests would be a very good idea. You did have a low vitamin D level, so please have that tested too. It's evident it's stimulating progesterone, which in turn is ramping up the oestrogen. This occurs with so many women with low vitamin D levels. Please persevere in taking it, unpleasant as it is. Although progesterone does help stressed adrenals, by lessening the stress response, there are other nutrients which help too. I think Dr Wilson's site Adrenal Fatigue is probably the best, it's his speciality. There are two nutrients you could consider. DIM, which is regarded as an anti-oestrogen, and calcium D-glucarate. Oestrogen is broken down into 2 principle metabolites, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1) and 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1). 16alpha-OHE1 is regarded as a potent oestrogen, whereas 2-OHE1 is a weaker oestrogen. In some studies DIM (3,3'-Diindolylmethane) increased levels of 2-OHE1, by doing so it also increases the ratio of 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1. This increased ratio is associated with a lower risk for breast cancer in some studies, not in others. It appears to have a positive affect on pancreatic, thyroid, prostate and gastric cancers too, and leukemia. The precursor to DIM is Indole 3 Carbinol (I3C) which also has antioxidant and anti-cancer properties. These are a selection of papers here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Continued below
Dec 29, 2012
 Vit d, insomnia, headaches Part 2
by: Wray

Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids, aromatic and heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, various nitrosamines, drugs, fungi etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, see here, here, here and here. Incidentally this enzyme is produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Silymarin from milk thistle also inhibits beta-glucuronidase, plus it helps the liver detox. Do let me know what the tests and the doctor find out. And thanks for reading all the info I give you! Take care Wray
Dec 29, 2012
 Inositol, GABA, magnesium ++
by: Kelz

Hi Wray, forgot to say yes I was lucky enough to spend 3 months visiting my parents in Rarotonga this year but have settled again in Australia. My parents own a resort there called Sea Change Villas which is absolutely a beautiful place to stay and we get a lot of Americans and Europeans staying.
Latest on what im trying, so I have started taking powdered form inositol and will keep that up to see how it works and im just about to order some GABA. Im also back on some silymarin and dandelion to help the liver. Im still taking vit d, zinc and B vitamins every day and will keep that up. Im also going to take the other persons advice on magnesium mineral baths as I do notice Im even worse at night if I dont have my 2 x 500mg magnesium tablets so if its even better having a bath in I will give it a go or at least do the foot bath as Im more a shower person.
Should I also be trying Tryptophan at the same time??
THANK YOU THANK YOU for your super fast replies. I really am feeling desperate for help and scared myself when I was starting to think the pill or HRT could help me as im just sooo bad and it affects my life so much. I turned 30 this year and I used to have so much more energy and far better sleep until I had a child and major stress all at the same time 5 years ago. I have never been the same since then although my life has now only your normal stress levels nothing major although its I got a lot worse 2 mths ago when I shifted house which was very stressful as im a single parent and have no family in this country and noticed since then my symptoms have got even worse, which leads me to think the adrenal thing could still be a big issue for me so Im going to buy that book from the Dr you recommended on Adrenal fatigue. I have started doing light exercise again also which I have to force myself to do when I have chronic fatigue. I forgot to tell you Ive also been feeling like im uncomfortable and unrelaxed in my own skin if that makes sense, like I cant relax, its the weirdest and most irritating feeling, is that from Oestrogen???
Thats all I can think of right now. Kelz
Dec 30, 2012
 Vit d, insomnia, headaches
by: Wray

Hi Kelz I've been giving some thought to your problem, and wondering if it's not possibly inflammation, and a lack of magnesium, vitamin D and progesterone. When you have your tests done, please get them to check both magnesium and vitamin D. I might of course covered all this is previous replies, but can't remember. What has set me thinking is excitotoxicity. It appears that insomnia could be caused by inflammation, it's certainly associated with sleep loss, see here, here and here. One paper saying "In insomnia, which is a very common sleep disorder, objective sleep measures, EEG activity, physiologic findings, HPA axis activity and inflammation markers suggest that it is not a state of sleep loss, but a disorder of hyperarousal present both during the night and the daytime.....pro-inflammatory cytokines' IL-6 and TNFa daytime secretion is elevated in insomniacs, considering their role in subjective complaints of fatigue and poor performance, may lead to novel approaches to treat insomnia. There are unpublished reports that insomniacs use anti-inflammatory medications to fight fatigue and even improve their sleep." Progesterone and vitamin D suppresses the inflammatory cytokines. It could be you need to get your vitamin D up near the 250nmol/L mark, and use far more progesterone. Plus take a complex to combat any possible Inflammation. Both Progesterone and Vitamin D are neurosteroids, protective of any brain inflammation, or excitotoxicity, see here. The paper says "...progesterone was found to block calcium entry through voltage-gated calcium channels...". Oestrogen is an excitatory hormone, it stimulates Ca(2+), an excitatory mineral, see here. Magnesium opposes the action of Ca, it relaxes, whereas Ca excites and constricts. Continued below
Dec 30, 2012
 Vit d, insomnia, headaches Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Another excitotoxin is glutamate, our major excitatory neurotransmitter, but too much can lead to over stimulation. Oestrogen stimulates it, see here. Progesterone protects against glutamate excitotoxicity, see here. Getting back to my first sentence, and a lack of those nutrients. Although you are using 200-300mg/day progesterone, and I was puzzled why it wasn't helping you in the last week of your cycle, I overlooked something. Heaven knows why as I know it too well, but oestrogen peaks mid-luteal phase, which is ±7 days before bleeding. This peak would be associated with a rise in glutamate and Ca(2+) activity. I might be completely off the mark of course! But you might consider taking a complex with high doses of antioxidants in case it is inflammation causing the insomnia. And please have those two tests done too. You might consider using far more progesterone too, see these comments here, scroll to "Nov 26, 2012 Having a Hard Time". Take care Wray
Dec 30, 2012
 Inositol, GABA, magnesium ++
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Well isn't it amazing we both thought of something else to say! So happy you spent all that time with your parents, it sounds idyllic. Can you not find work there? The stress of moving house is something I've been going through for 3 months, as I did the move myself in my pick-up, daft! I still have 9 boxes to unpack from about 4 weeks ago, I just walk past them hoping they'll disappear! I have been putting the progesterone all over, from top to toe each am and pm. Plus taking a complex we make for energy boosting, I'm surviving, although still tired. Don't forget Stress drops progesterone levels, vitamin D too, plus many of the amino acids. Although 5 years ago, having a child and having to bring it up alone is not easy, it will take a long time to recover, and any little stress will set you back far more than normal. Do let me know if the inositol helps, the GABA too, it helps me to help others. Glad you're taking the other stuff too, please make sure it's enough vitamin D. So interesting you've noticed the magnesium helps, that's what I brought up in my latest post. I think avoid the tryp, and see if the inositol helps you, as that raises serotonin levels. The tryp can be tricky, as too much sends you over the edge. Please don't think Contraceptives or HRT can help, please look through these pages, and the papers too if you need further convincing. Please don't force yourself to do exercise, unless you feel some benefit from it. It can stress the adrenals even more. Your last sentence gave me goose bumps, as that's exactly how you would feel if your calcium and glutamate are too high. Which is also why you respond to the magnesium. I told you calcium constricts, well one of it's major roles is to contract our muscles, too much and you won't be able to relax. Whereas magnesium relaxes muscles, it's a push/pull system, we need both but in balance. Maybe you should have your calcium levels checked too. Generally magnesium is low, as it's low in our soils, it's the most important co-factor for vitamin D too. I decided to look for 'calcium and insomnia' in PubMed, and amazingly came up with this 2011 paper here, which says "About 16.5% reported insomnia and displayed distinct metabolic changes reflecting an increase in insulin secretion, a higher risk of diabetes, and disrupted calcium signaling". Insulin drops progesterone levels, see here. Continued below
Dec 30, 2012
 Inositol, GABA, magnesium ++ Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kelz And another 2011 paper here which says "Accumulating studies suggest that the T-type calcium channel is a potential target for the treatment of various neurological disorders, such as epilepsy, insomnia, and neuropathic pain." Progesterone helps all three of these, so maybe you do need more. Plus it blocks calcium channels. This paper here is about trazodone, a drug used to treat insomnia, working by inhibiting the calcium channels. Please read through our page on Insulin Resistance and see if any of it rings true for you. If excess insulin is associated with disrupted calcium signalling and insomnia, maybe IR is one reason you have sleep problems. Take care Wray
Dec 30, 2012
 Insulin Resistance :)
by: kelz

Hi Wray,
Wow just read up on insulin resistance and cant believe I have the majority of the symptoms on that long list. Maybe this could be the answer as it really does describe me. I have ordered a couple of your energy boost formula which sounds fantastic and to have it all in the one mix is ideal for someone like me. Can you let me know what other things you would suggest I do. Im going to be very strict on the diet by eliminating the carbs and sugar which I was only having very little of anyway but will try even harder now, do you have any diet plans you could reccomend. I sometimes find it hard to think of what to make to eat. Im also stopping my one a day coffee to see if it helps.
I also wanted to tell you that if you ever visited Rarotonga we would love to give you some accommodation free of charge. What you do for people is really wonderful and I appreciate the time you spend replying to all of the posts you must receive each day. Let me know if you are ever travelling our part of the world.
One more thing Do I need to stop taking my inositol and other things that are already in your energy boost so I dont double up?? Thanks again. Kelz
Dec 31, 2012
 Insulin Resistance :)
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Well I'm so delighted!! Even more so if the energy boost complex helps you. I take this daily, find I can't do with out it now. It's loaded with antioxidants too. The last two papers I gave you were so interesting for me, as the link to IR was so clear. Although excited about reading them as a possible clue to your insomnia, I wasn't at all surprised, as so many studies are finding all our modern 'problems' are caused by oxidative stress, in other words an excess of free radicals are flying around. These lead to Inflammation, and all it's attendant problems. They've even found that depression is caused by oxidative stress. As for diet, I try to follow the Paleo Diet, based on what our ancestors used to eat, i.e. no grains, legumes or dairy. Although I do still eat butter and cream! And if I can get hold of it, real milk, that hasn't been denatured by pasteurising or homogenising. We do have a page on Nutrition which gives a list of websites with various eating plans, including the Paleo. All good, but as our tastes vary I've included them all. Interesting you should bring up coffee, it's actually been proven by many studies to be good for us, has many antioxidants. For this I'm thankful as I love it. But a paper I have suggests D-ribose is taken with it to 'soften the blow' of the caffeine, see here. I have tried it in coffee before I found this paper, can't notice a difference but I think my body is numbed to caffeine now! Another effective nutrient is taurine, as it helps stop the rapid heart beat caused by caffeine, I take extra of this too! Please do keep in touch, as I'm concerned about your insomnia and fatigue, and would really like to get to the bottom of it, I so hope IR is the key. It's a pity to waste the things you've bought, so please finish them up. Inositol is safe to go to 18,000mg/day, so you could continue that if not finished, see here, here and here. I'm so touched by your offer, you are such a darling. I keep dreaming of a tropical island to live on, so maybe one day I will make it over to Rarotonga! Take care Wray
Jan 23, 2013
 Positive Results
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray,
Just thought I would let you know that I just had my blood tests done (couldnt get saliva as they say its so expensive here in Australia) but I am extremely low in DHEA which I remember you suggesting to me in the past, cortisol was slightly low also. The Dr Im seeing thinks this will be why I have extreme fatigue and feel flat as a pancake most days. She is prescribing me good quality 50mg tablets that I take 1 every mon,wed,fri. Does this sound correct to you??
I am so happy that my my progesterone is good and she was surprised that my reading of it wasnt through the roof since I use 200mg-250 per day so it just shows I need the progesterone also. My vitamin D came back good too so I also know I need to keep taking this as in past the reading came back low. Your energy boost powder is also helping me through the worst part when I cant sleep as coping much better in the day so hopefully this will help me cope until the DHEA does its job. Is there any info you can give me or advice? Do you think once the DHEA starts working my sleep should improve around period time, as all the hormones should start to function better?? My testerone was low but she said that was because my DHEA was low so that should improve also from the DHEA.

One thing I wasnt sure of her advice was that she said only to use the progesterone cream in the morning in one area, so a different area every day of the week. I thought it went in two cycles through the day so Im worried about this?
THANKS, Kelz
Jan 24, 2013
 Positive Results
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Never mind, blood tests do give an idea of what's going on. I'm a bit concerned about the DHEA, I never recommend a woman takes it. It does convert to testosterone, which is not a good hormone for women. So see how you feel taking it, I would be interested to hear if it helps you. These are some papers here, here and here. A better way to take it is 7-Keto DHEA, it's not converted to testosterone. These are some on testosterone itself, see here, here, here, here here, here, here, here and here. I'm glad your level is low. If you still have sleep problems around period time, please increase the progesterone the few days beforehand. I didn't realise you were only using 200-250mg/day, I thought it was much more! You might like to see these comments from other women using high amounts here, here, here, Scroll to 'Possibly Reconsider' and here. Continued below
Jan 24, 2013
 Positive Results
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Pleased the EB is helping you, it does take time to kick in, so give it 2-3 months. Please do not follow her suggestion about using the progesterone once a day. A minimum of twice a day is required as levels begin dropping after about 13 hours. I have some women using it hourly with severe symptoms. The rotating of areas is recommended by everyone except me! I see no reason for it, the one which is always quoted is that the fatty layer becomes saturated. Well I did a page on Progesterone Misconceptions which covers this and more. Take care Wray
Jan 24, 2013
 DHEA???
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray, thanks for the fast reply. I have read a bit of the papers you sent through and I too was worried about raising testosterone too much and I remember when I tried it once it gave my oily skin. My DHEA came back at 360ug/L and normal range is (500-4300). What do you think could be causing my extreme fatigue, I seem to have all the side effects of someone who is low in DHEA as I did a bit of research when I got home after my blood test results. Progesterone came back as 130 pmol/L. I took the blood test on day 28 which I think was meant to be day 21 but poor communication from doc on that. The fatigue and tiredness is a contstant thing and the sleep thing has gone back to just that week before period and a few days after so up to about 10 or so days of bad sleep. I do use about 400-500mg or more around that time of progesterone and it still doesnt help the sleep? I was thinking of only trying the dhea for a couple of months until I get my next blood test from her to see if it helps as Ive read many people said they felt so much better and no more fatigue once using it for 2 months. Sheesh it gets confusing at times. I will definitely let you know how I get on with it and if it helps me. And I totally agree with you on the not needing to rotate cream and I know I need it twice a day :). Do you think trying it for a couple of months is safe to do, its 50mg 3 times a week???
Jan 26, 2013
 DHEA???
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Well I'm glad you've tried it before and know what it does. It's interesting, but neither Medline or Wiki give levels of DHEA, only DHEA-S, which are the links I've given you. Keratin does give them. And according to the Mayo Clinic "Side effects may include fatigue, nasal congestion, headache, acne, or rapid/irregular heartbeats. In women, the most common side effects are abnormal menses, emotional changes, headache, and insomnia."......not what you need! Apart from Keratin I can't find another site giving the levels. What puzzles me a bit, you've given the DHEA results in micrograms, whereas Keratin give in in nanograms, 1000 times smaller. DHEA-S is measured in micrograms. An excellent site I use for conversion of Clinical Data also gives it in nanograms. So I can't really help you as to whether it's low or normal, as converting it to nanograms it's within range. I'm sorry the progesterone is not helping the sleep issue with the amount you are using, it generally would. The fatigue is definitely because you're not getting enough sleep, but it could also be because your cells are not getting the fuel they need. I made up the EB because I was exhausted at one point. I agreed against my better judgement, to do up a restaurant for a chef friend. Something I love doing, so the temptation was too great! So I would stop this work at about 4 or 5, drive to the next suburb and work until 10 or 11 at night. I had my daughter and her friends from university helping me. Well towards the end I could barely talk! Never mind do any work. So I researched about lack of fuel getting to cells and came up with the formula. It certainly turned me around, but I didn't have the insomnia to deal with. Continued below
Jan 26, 2013
 DHEA???
by: Wray

Hi Kelz There is another supplement you could try, it is in the EB, but not a great deal. It's D-ribose and is given to people suffering from ischaemia i.e. 'a shortage of oxygen and glucose needed for cellular metabolism', and CFS and fibro, see here, here, and here. It's part of our RNA and is used for the production of ATP. I quite often take a spoonful in milk or water. It's sweet, so it's pleasant to take in a drink. I don't think 2 months of DHEA is going to harm you, so why not try it. Do let me know how you get on, most interested! Take care Wray
Jan 26, 2013
 similar problems , with bad sleep wk before
by: Megan

Hi Wray,
It seems i'm having a similar problem as OP.
I WAS taking 300 mgs of oral progesterone. This past Tuesady (it's not saturday) i got progesterone creme in the mail. It is called progesta care. I've been taking one pump , which is 20mgs but i'm haivng insomnia and i do't know if one pmp is doing it, i tried 1 .5 that didn't help either. There is 480mgs per oz. Can you tell me if one pump, or 20mgs seems like enough if i WAS taking 300 mgs in a capsule form?
also, i started DHEA the same time as teh progesta, my dr told me to take 25mg. I take it in a spray form. I'm wondering if the dhea is causing the insomnia
BTW, my period is due in 4 days, so , like the OP the week before my period is hell with the insomnia.
I'm going to reduce dhea tomorrow to 12.5 mgs.
Help, i'm desperate for sleep.
Last night i took my normal melatonin(10mgs) one pump of progesta care and had to rely onbenadryl, been relying on it all week. At 1230a, when i coldn't sleep i went downstairs and added another pump or P creme and fianlly fell asleep.
how does the 40mg of creme i took last night euate to the 300 mgs of oralP i was taking??
Jan 26, 2013
 Adrenal Burnout/Dhea
by: Kelz

Hi Wray, I realise Ive actually been prescribed 20mg every 3 days in capsule form but now after further reading Im reluctant to take it orally, I read a page of Dr Mercolas and he said he takes it but in a cream form as like the progesterone it just gets ruined by your gut and can give other side affects. Do you know if I could break open the capsules and try them as a cream, maybe mix it with the natpro cream in the morning or is that a no no??
I really know now that I have severe adrenal fatigue and maybe some insulin resistance. My diet is good but I think I have a lot of damage that needs to heal. Im thinking of ordering the two adrenal rebuiling products from the Dr you put me on to about adrenal fatigue as I really feel like my adrenal glands are stuffed. I was in a high state of stress for 3-4 years which would of done it. I was also thinking it made sense my blood test showed low cortisol in the morning when it should be high, I wonder if I had one at early evening if it would be high as I really think this is why im not sleeping.
I would like to give the DHEA a go and wish I hadnt spent $50 on it the other day because I would rather a cream. Its so frustrating that even the lead holistic type doctors for hormones still dont know what you and ones like Dr Mercola do, very frustrating. I really feel like telling her to come and read this site and the adrenal fatigue site as I feel like shes not helping people to the best of her ability but I wouldnt haha. I have a really bad view of doctors due to past experiences. This lady has charged me $150 per session, Im a single parent and she was the one that came up best in Australia for knowing so much about hormones but seems to not even understand fully the basics like how useless it is to take tablet form of prog.
Anyway would love our view on DHEA cream? and the adrenal fatigue tablets. I thought they would work great alongside your energy powder as I checked the ingredients and they were quite different. Thanks again for your time
Jan 27, 2013
 similar problems , with bad sleep wk before
by: Wray

Hi Megan Oral progesterone is the least effective Delivery system. Most of it gets destroyed in the gut and liver......."The liver and gut region removed a mean of 96 per cent of the progesterone entering these tissues" see here. Generally I go by about 10-20%, rather than the 4% in the paper. So 300mg/day would be giving you anywhere from 30-60mg/day. Was it helping you, as that's about all it's good for, sleep. I'm puzzled why you changed to a cream, or was it because it wasn't helping and you'd heard the creams are better. As you can see from Kelz, she's struggling with insomnia, please would you read what info I've given her. As your story sounds very similar. Also read the papers on DHEA I gave her, you might reconsider taking it. Please have a vitamin D test done. Low levels are often the cause of insomnia, see here and here. Progesterone normally helps sleep, but I feel you would need about 400mg/day or more. You might like to see these comments here and here from women who had to use very high levels of progesterone, plus getting their vitamin D level up before their symptoms resolved, not necessarily insomnia. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although recent research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Take care Wray
Jan 28, 2013
 Adrenal Burnout/Dhea
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Interesting you found that info about using it in cream form, it does make better sense. Dr Mercola uses it you say, well he's man so the testosterone increase wouldn't hurt him. The problem with DHEA it only goes the male hormone route, before finally being converted to the oestrogens, see this excellent chart by Genova Diagnostics. I often recommend women empty the contents of progesterone capsules into a small amount of cream to get the full benefit. Your idea of doing that to the DHEA is a good one. Is it dissolved in an oil in the cap, or just a powder, hopefully oil? You're bound to have adrenal fatigue if you're so stressed, no question about that. But did anyone check out your thyroid? As that also has a bearing on how we feel. I can't remember if I asked you to try tyrosine? It's one of the most important aminos as it's the precursor to T3 and T4 the two thyroid hormones, the precursor to dopamine, and finally the precursor to adrenaline. The stress response takes precedence above everything else, a left over from the past when it got us out of danger. So all the tyrosine is used up by the adrenals making adrenaline, leaving little for T3 and T4 production, and of course dopamine levels drop too. Dopamine is our 'get up and go' neurotransmitter, depression can set in and libido crashes, and we 'flat line' as I call it. Of course progesterone drops too, as all that is being used up by the adrenals to make cortisol. So the adrenals are really overworked! By supplying extra progesterone it gives them a break from making it before converting it to cortisol, and by supplying extra tyrosine the same too. But the thyroid needs iodine to make T3 and T4, plus the co-factor selenium. Both these minerals are in short supply now, our soils are depleted and we rarely eat iodine rich foods. Continued below
Jan 28, 2013
 Adrenal Burnout/Dhea Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kelz This thread here is very long, but Julie's symptoms resemble yours. She has recently started taking a supplement you can get here, and it's helped tremendously. I'm so sad you had to spend all that money on someone who hasn't looked through all the possible connections. Problem is there are so many! Did I ever ask you to try adding more salt to your food, or taking 1/2tsp in some water every day? The adrenals need sodium to function, and often a lack of salt causes them to malfunction. Plus extra salt can help sleep if that's the problem, see here. Please would you try this if you haven't already. It's a cheaper option than getting those supps from Dr Wilson, that's if you bought all four of his adrenal support protocol. You should also be able to get adrenal glandulars from a health shop for much less. Take care Wray
Jan 28, 2013
 Salt/Thyroid
by: kelz

Hi Wray, thanks for your response, you are certainly helping me piece this puzzle altogether. I am not stressed now but stayed in a constant state of high stress for about 3 years about 5 years ago which like you said has made me flat line, the problem is I never recovered at all I dont think so have stayed in a horrible unhealthy fatigued state even though I eat very healthy and exercise when I feel up to it. Its funny you mentioned salt as I just read up on that and went and bought pure himalyan salt and took 3/4 teaspoon in warm water this morning for the first time, this is the salt I read to take is that correct?? I got it from health shop so that it would be good quality. Im taking your energy formula every day the whole 4 teaspoons which has tyrosine, do I need more than this?? I was going to take an extra Vit D too what do you think as I heard this would be good for my kidneys which prob need some help. Im juicing veges and fruit every day to help my kidneys too.
Ive had my thyroid tested numerous times through the years and only one time a naturopath said it wasnt functioning as well but recent blood test was my TSH was 1.0 mU/L which she said was ok??? is it ok??? I heard it doesnt show up easily in blood tests so it can be not good but still show up its fine. Im going to read up on all those links you sent me as im intirgued to see what helped that other lady. I will try anything suggested to me as I cant go another year like this, it was killing me. Thanks again it means a lot that you reply so quickly :)
Jan 28, 2013
 symptoms/thyroid/kidneys
by: Kelz

Hi Wray, another couple od symptoms I have experienced badly is feeling uncomfortable in my own skin which has eased since taking your supplements and more Vit D, but if I walk around too much for example I did a few days shopping and running errands with my mum when she was visiting and my lower back area would be so painful, I would jokingly say to mum my kindeys were tired I have to go home now, could this be the case though if I have bad adrenal fatigue which I know I do now?? The muscle weakness is also bad for me but some days not as bad as others.
Ok off to take my salt in water this morning and maybe a little extra vit d and zinc along with your energy powder. Cant wait to see how I feel in a few more months. Also if I tried the thyroid boost stuff the other lady tried does that mean I dont need to take salt and water anymore? Also how will my DHEA get back to normal if I dont take it anymore??? Sorry so many questions, I just feel excited Im on the right track after 5 years of suffereing :) Thanks again!!!! Kelly
Jan 29, 2013
 Salt/Thyroid
by: Wray

Hi Kelz It is a puzzle, and usually it's easy enough to get to the bottom of the problem, but with you it's taking too long! I remember you told me your high stress was 5 years ago. But you seem to forget you are single mum (high stress!), you have not only moved house, but country too (high stress!) and you have no supporting family members near you (high stress!). Different from the previous hugely emotional stress, but stress nonetheless. So pleased you're trying the salt/water mixture, I use that salt too, it's meant to have a higher level of other minerals in it. Do let me know if it makes a difference to the sleep and your adrenals. The EB only contains 500mg/dose tyrosine, it could be you need more. I'm not sure how long you've been taking the full dose, but see how you get on. If you feel you'd like to try more, then increase the tyrosine by a further 500mg/day. Do you know what your vitamin D level is now? I know it was low, and you said when you increased it it made your insomnia worse. I see you say your level was 'good' but is that by your doctors definition? As they don't go by the specialists level of good, but what the government thinks is good! Please check for me, it should be between 175-250nmol/L. Are you still taking the magnesium, the most important co-factor, you said you found it helped you. Thyroid tests only look for TSH, sometimes T3 and T4, but never for the raw materials needed to make the T3 and T4, i.e. tyrosine, iodine and selenium an important co-factor. TSH ranges from 0.4 - 4.0 mIU/L, see our page on Hormone Testing. So yours is in the normal range. Julie came back to me today, she had decided to stop the progesterone to see if her period would come, what a disaster! As I said to her too, it's finding out which system is out of sorts, and correcting it, they are all so interlinked it makes it so difficult. You only have to read a list of progesterone symptoms, and you'll find the same for thyroid, adrenals, insulin resistance and more! Keep in touch. Take care Wray
Jan 29, 2013
 symptoms/thyroid/kidneys
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Well I would say the pain was your adrenals, not your kidneys. The adrenals are the size of a walnut and sit on top of your kidneys! I've not heard before of the adrenals actually causing pain, but if stressed they do become enlarged, which can only mean inflamed. I don't know if you've had a chance to read that stress page I gave you? You haven't mentioned muscle weakness before. If you do have this, I've had it too, you need far more progesterone, at least 400mg/day, possibly more. Progesterone is excellent for myopathy, so too is vitamin D, see here, here and here. This last abstract has nothing on it, so I've pasted a passage from the paper which I bought... 'Substantial relief of myopathic disability by progesterone therapy'.....
(We report about a 41-year old woman who was suffering from a general muscle weakness since her early childhood....From July 1998 until July 1999 the patient was treated with progesterone suppositorium 0.4 g once a day from the 14th to the 25th day of the menstrual cycle. In July 1999 her gait had improved significantly and she could get up from a chair more easily, even her ability to walk up and down stairs had improved....Progesterone dosage was increased from 400 mg to 600 mg. In January 2001 the patient reported enthusiastically about the improvement she had gained from progesterone-therapy. The patient reported a clear increase in strength in all affected muscle groups resulting in dramatic functional improvement.) And these on vitamin D, see here, here and here. I had myopathy after my daughter was born, sometimes could barely walk. I had it again badly in Peri-menopause, but luckily I had just found progesterone, and it went very quickly. Continued below
Jan 29, 2013
 symptoms/thyroid/kidneys
by: Wray

Hi Kelz If you find the salt helps you, it means your adrenals do need it, it's the sodium they need. The other stuff Julie tried was for the thyroid. Don't think you need to worry about the DHEA at this point. Let's see if we can get the adrenals better first. Can you afford to increase the progesterone, as 400mg/day one tube will only last 5 days. If you find you need 600mg/day it would only last 3.3 days. There is a 20 tube option which comes with a 30% discount if this helps. Bless you, I do hope we can eventually get you right, it's been too long. Can you think of any other symptom you haven't told me! And please get those vitamin D test results for me, it could be you need to take far more than you are. Take care Wray
Jan 29, 2013
 More symptoms
by: Kelz

Hi Wray,
The muscle weakness is bad at times, a couple of times Ive attempted to do a light 3km walk and get half way through and just about cant make it home as my muscles go completely limp with no power. And if I walk up the stairs fast at home I can feel exhausted at the top and heart pounds extremely fast, even light headed. Also had slight vertigo at times and experienced it bad one day after I had my little girl.
Other symptoms Ive had is a sensitivity to noise, loud noise seems to really irritate me or give me bad anxiety which was one of the low DHEA symptoms. I dont esperience anxiety too much as Im trying to think positive etc at this time. Although I can feel down at times for no reason I think the state Im in can get me down as its just so awful feeling this way especially when people think you should be full of life at 30. Im self employed and have other interest in life that I like to do but its always difficult. I used to play a lot of representative sport when I was younger too and have a desire to play sport for fun but cant when Im like this. Other strange symptoms are swollen gums in my mouth that are really bad this comes and goes so Im not sure if its food related. The crawling skin I had seems to have eased but a month a go I could barely sit still I felt so uncomfortable in my skin. Also a main one is feeling groggy and heavy every morning when I get up even if Ive slept not too bad that night. I also get headaches every week or two. Hair loss is another, I have so much hair come out everyday its crazy and my mum cant beleive how much is on the floor after I blow dry.

So far this is how Im trying to help myself. I take your energy boost powder 4 teaspoons. I juice a range of veges and fruit. I take magnesium every night 1000mg and will start taking an extra Vit D and zinc for the next month to see if it helps. Im taking about 300mg prog but as you said I will try increase this to 400-500mg. Trying to drink as much filtered water as possible. And just started the pink salt in water each morning. What else could I do at this stage?? Should I try the thyroid stuff?? I read omega 3 is good for the kidneys too should I keep taking one of those a day?? Could I take about 6 teaspoons of your energy powder?? or is that too much of everything?? I thought even just for 2 months to see if it makes any changes?
THANKYOU THANKYOU!!!
Jan 30, 2013
 More symptoms
by: Wray

Hi Kelz This is all very interesting. If you can up the progesterone and vitamin D I'm sure it will begin to help the muscle weakness, and more. But please find out your level of vitamin D for me, it could be you need to take far more than you are. Sensitivity to noise, also to bright lights and odours, indicates adrenal stress! I've had others with crawling skin, and the progesterone stopped it. Seems you're not taking enough. Hair Loss can be caused by excess testosterone, often the case of women in Peri-menopause, which you're not! Stress causes it to, even though you say you're not stressed, I think this is the reason yours is coming out. Low thyroid function can cause it too, lack of vitamin D, progesterone, etc. I would avoid all fruits except apple juice, and only a little of that. Too much fruit juice sends the blood glucose up, then it crashes, and so do we! Veggie juices are excellent. Drink only when thirsty, too much is not a good thing. Read that info I gave you from Ray Peat about water and salt. Don't worry about your kidneys, it's your adrenals which are stressed, possibly thyroid too. I suggest before you add too many other things, you stick to what you are taking for a bit to see if it helps. Otherwise you'll never know which helped you! Except of course the progesterone, please increase that. I completely forgot to give you the details of Blake Graham, (link no longer available on web). I used to get valuable info from his website. I always gave his details to anyone in Aussie. He used to run his own clinic, but now seems to have joined another. Years ago I put together a health questionnaire, listing all the symptoms of the major organs if malfunctioning. I had wanted to get it on the website to help people, but time, there is never enough of it! Anyway I've extracted all the symptoms of stressed adrenals, have a look through it and see if you have enough of them to indicate they are. A cursory look showed me they are, you might find other things on the list......

abdominal pain
alcohol-quick reaction or over-reaction to it
allergies- seasonal/respiratory
allergies or sensitivities to food or chemicals
anxiety
asthma
Continued below
Jan 30, 2013
 More symptoms Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kelz
backache-upper back and lower neck
blood pressure-low
breathing difficulties
brown patches on cheeks
caffeine needed to get going in the morning
cholesterol -excessively low
clumsiness
concentration-lack of, inability to concentrate
cravings for sweet things; sugar, breads, cakes etc
crying- easily upset, quick to cry
dark rings under the eyes
depression
depression-eat or drink to alleviate it
difficulty in falling asleep
difficulty in getting up after enough sleep
dislike cold weather
dizziness
easily frustrated
exercise - feel worse after it or cannot tolerate much
fainting spells
fatigue
hands and/or feet sweat
headaches
heartburn
hypoglycaemia (low blood sugar)
indigestion
infections-frequent
insomnia
lack of mental alertness
Continued below
Jan 30, 2013
 More symptoms part 3
by: Wray

Hi Kelz
light headedness
mental confusion and stress
migraines
mood swings
more alert in the evening, compared to morning
muscle aches/pain
muscle weakness
palpitations
panic attacks/panicky
salt cravings
sensitive to bright light
sensitive to loud noises
sensitive to strong odours
sensitive to fumes- exhaust, chemical, perfumes, tobacco
shaking, trembling
sleep disturbances
standing still - causes discomfort
stress - low tolerance
sunburn easily
temperature - unstable
thirst - lack of
tired all the time
urination-infrequent
vitiligo (lack of skin pigment-melanin)
water retention
yeast infections

Take care Wray
Jan 30, 2013
 Symptoms
by: Kelz

Hi Wray, Reading those syptoms makes me realise I probably have close to 90% of whats on that list which is shocking. So I think the adrenal thing is the path to go down and also thyroid, as years ago I kept going to the doctors saying to them I had all the symptoms of a underactive thyroid but they kept saying i was fine.
My recent blood test for Vitamin D was 120 nmol/L I read on one site that is should be higher than this. So Ive increased my supplement of it to 10000 IU. Ive also started using about 450mg progesterone so I will give it a few weeks and see if it helps.
I would like to try and get some more adrenal supplements I will have a look here in Australia first.
I will keep in touch and if theres anything else you can reccommend at this stage Im all ears!! Have a great day :)
Jan 31, 2013
 Symptoms
by: Wray

Hi Kelz I now realise I need to get that questionnaire on our site. How much quicker all this would have been if you'd been able to look through all the systems, and picked out the ones which needed help. Vitamin D should be 175-250nmol/L, that's according to the specialists, not according to our various governments! Mine is currently 230nmol/L. So I'm pleased you've increased to 10,000iu per day. Really interested to hear how that and the higher progesterone helps you. You definitely need to take some adrenal supps, getting it in Australia will certainly be cheaper. This paper I've just discovered I had is very interesting, see here. It talks about 'subclinical hypothyroidism in the presence of adrenal insufficiency', and how correcting the low adrenal function with adrenal glandulars, corrected the thyroid problem, without the need of thyroid meds. I think the subclinical hypothyroidism fits you. These are some of the herbs used for the adrenals.....
Astragalus extract
Siberian Ginseng
Licorice
Milk thistle
Rhodiola rosea
Schizandra

Everyone has their own ideas of course! Take care Wray
Jan 31, 2013
 Adrenals
by: Kelz

Hi again,
Perfect!! most of the items you mentioned that are good for adrenals are in the product I bought today called Adreno Tone made ny Mategenics which are meant to be superior products and which he assured me people had good results from. And I think I may have milk thistle in cupboard.
YAY I really am feeling so much more happier and like Im on the right track. I have doubled my vit D, doubled the progesterone and taking your energy formula plus this new Adrenotone and lots of good vege juices. Wish me luck on this journey and I hope I can report back some very good news in 2 -3 months. Im excited to get it all underway properly.
I really cant thank you enough Wray for you kindness and time, I eagerly check my emails each day to see if you have replied. It brings tears to my eyes that you really want to help us when others just want our money. THANK YOU and I tell everyone about your wonderful products. I have decided to go with the 20 tubes so I dont have to get anxious about running out anytime soon. Hope I can feel my age again soon :)
Take care and I will keep in touch
Kelly
Feb 01, 2013
 Adrenals
by: Wray

Hi Kelz Oh I'm so delighted! And they are meant to be a good company. Milk thistle goes into all our products, a very high dose in fact and it's in the EB so you shouldn't need more. It's not only helpful to the liver, but is an antioxidant with anti-cancer properties, which is why I use it, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Ooops more reading for you! So happy you're feeling more happy, it seems you've hit on the right road at last. I'm glad you said 2-3 months, realistic, as it's not a quick fix. And you will have down days, but don't let that get you down, if you know what I mean. Bless you, of course I want to help! Obviously I need to make money like all of us do, or I couldn't do this! But I don't need to make a killing, we do try to keep the cost of the cream down as low as we can. In fact it hasn't changed in price since we started 16 years ago. We needed bigger margins then, as we were only starting. I live alone in a rented, little thatch cottage, in a little village full of oak trees and roses, two hours from Cape Town. I own the furniture in the cottage, and I have an old 4x4 pick up. I have a wonderful daughter, family and friends and a job I love! And please do let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

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