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Ratio between Oestrogen and Progesterone Clarification

by Catherine
(Switzerland)

Hello Wray,

I found your site some months ago after years of baffling and at times distressing symptoms, health issues, etc. Among them 2 blighted ovums, 2 miscarriages, monthly migraines, ludicrous weight gain, tiredness, oedema, eyebrows disappearing, recurrent infections ( including hospitalisation with septicemia last year!!) etc etc.

I started on NatPro in May of this year after reading your site top to bottom and back to front. I use around 320 ml for 2 weeks of my cycle ( still almost regular 28 day cycles...occasionally slightly shorter). My migraines disappeared from the second month - WONDERFUL!! My husband says I no-longer snore (!) and the large, so-called liver spot that had appeared above my left eye a couple of years ago has now miraculously disappeared.

Unfortunately the weight hasn't changed unfortunately ( has continued to creep up) and I feel that my thyroid is suffering more than it has done previously - I feel pain in my neck and throat far more frequently than ever. I don't put this down to progesterone btw...The fatigue is also worse. I am often in bed by 9pm. And that's with an afternoon nap!

I would like a little advice if you have a moment. I am 48 by the way, and eat well - organic produce, a keen cook so no processed food and rigorous about nutritional balance. And it's the usual story of 1,500 calories and no more, plus yoga, walking and weights simply to maintain my weight at 2 stone more than it should be.

VitD tested in 2013 -81 nmol/L; Vit B 551 pmol/L.

I had blood tests done 2 weeks ago. The endocrinologist tells me everything is ''absolutely fine'' except elevated liver enzymes. In fact, antibodies and ultrasound revealed (moderate) Hashimotos disease - though she said this was nothing to worry about and couldn't possibly explain any of the symptoms I presented to her. (!!)

My hormone results were also intriguing and are as follows:

Estradiol E2 571 pmol/L
Progesterone 1.9 nmol/L (1900? pmol/L)
Testosterone 1.9 nmol/L

Am I right in my calculations that the ration P:E is about 3.3:1? Of course, they results are in range which is why the endo did no-more than glance at them before declaring them ''fine''.

If my calculation is correct, this is very, very low. Should I increase the NatPro to 400-500 a day? Use it every day of my cycle?

My liver enzyme result does concern me - I will start with Milk Thistle very soon and have cut out alcohol and reduced coffee/tea to one a day. If I understand things correctly, a sluggish liver will struggle to get rid of the oestrogen that is dumped there. And of course the Hashimotos is also a factor.
I cannot understand if the ratio of testosterone to oestrogen is significant in my case?

Any advice very gratefully received Wray and thank you very much for such a wonderful site.

Comments for Ratio between Oestrogen and Progesterone Clarification

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Sep 19, 2015
 followc along
by: letitia

just want to follow along
Jan 25, 2016
 following..
by: fiona

I just wanted to follow along. I also am not sure how to calculate the ratio.. I am in the usa... so they are pg/ml so diff then the uk. Also you might want to specify what kind of diet, it can be organize but if you are heavy on wheat, pasta, breads, potatoes then that is very high on the sugar scale..

Estrone saliva am < 5.0
Estradiol 0.2 saliva am
Estriol saliva am <0.1
progesterone saliva am 39.
tester one saliva am 20
melatonin 11.2
cortisol saliva am 0.59 rest of the day ok.
DHEA saliva am 0.21
17-OHP saliva am 11.6
Jan 26, 2016
 Follow along?
by: Anonymous

Confess I don't get what the two posters above are following? No-one has ( seriously) responded to my original posting so there is nothing to follow!

And completely bemused regarding comment relating to potatoes and pasta.
Jan 27, 2016
 Ratio between Oestrogen and Progesterone Clarification
by: Joy

Hi Catherine

Apologies for only getting back to you now, your post somehow slipped through the cracks.

I am so pleased that you finally decided to use Natpro as most of your adverse symptoms are caused by excess estrogen, please read Estrogen Dominance. https://www.progesteronetherapy.com/estrogen-dominance. I am sure that you must mean 320mg and not 320ml. It really is best to used progesterone for 2-6 months before positive results are experienced. Even though already you are benefiting, it can take time for the body to adjust. You may need to increase to 400mg per day every day, this will help with your weight gain. Remember of cause that estrogen is a mitogen causing fat cells to proliferate, many think that progesterone causes it, it doesn't, and the quickest way to resolve this is to use more cream until you achieve positive results. Weight gain could also mean Insulin Resistance have you been tested for this? https://www.progesteronetherapy.com/insulin-resistance. The Ketogenic Diet is also something to consider, it produces excellent results. Cut back or cut out all carbs, including pasta and potatoes as Wray continually mentions. http://markmaunder.com/2012/07/22/the-basic-ketogenic-diet.

At 48 you are in Peri-Menopause when progesterone is needed to be used every day from now on https://www.progesteronetherapy.com/peri-menopause. Your Vitmain D3 level is low, it should be between 175-250nmol/L, a deficiency reduces the benefits of progesterone. http://www.progesterone-info.com/benefits-of-vitamin-d. Your P:E3 ratio is 3:1, you calculated it correctly which is of course extremely low, it should be 600:1. The words 'fine' and 'normal' infuriate me greatly, what is fine and normal? The Hormone Testing page which I am sure that you have read, explains exactly what levels should be. Also something to think about, is that it is not the individual results for P and E3 that is important, it is the ratio between the two hormones that is. Did they bother to work that out for you?

Extra estrogen and testosterone is not what Wray or I ever recommend, no woman needs to take extra. The side effects of testosterone are simply not worth it, one area of concern is that it can cause cardiovascular disease. http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2009-0740. Milk Thistle is excellent for the liver, I take it every day, but I really do feel that you need to get your vitamin D3 level up and use more progesterone. Please remember to take co-factors as mentioned on the Vitamin D3 page or on Wray's website, magnesium being the most important one.

I hope this helps you.
Jan 28, 2016
 Thank you
by: Anonymous

Many thanks for your detailed response Joy. Interestingly I have been taking a ndt for my thyroid issues for a couple of months yet still there are symptoms of oestrogen dominance ( I had hoped they would all miraculously disappear!) I stopped natpro for a couple of months - and the monthly migraines and snoring reappeared.
Persistence and attention to all the other vitamins/minerals, etc as you have advised seems to be fundamental.
Thanks again.

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