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Liz UK

by Liz
(Blackburn )

Hello Wray,

I can no longer add "Comments" to my page. I guess it's full ! :)

I am writing to ask what you think might be the best way to proceed for me after using Natpro for 5 solid months, no gaps at around 200 - 400mg daily.

Just to remind you, I used to have insomnia, hot flushes, night sweats, anxiety and depression breast swelling to the point of being in bad pain and developed heavy bleeding with clots.

They have all but gone.

Since using your cream my periods have become erratic. Increasing in how often usually every 14 days. But are very light.

I have started walking and exercising the last 3 weeks have felt the energy to do so which is new for me.

My problem or rather concern is I have not been measuring the cream and instead just slapping a dollop on 2 or 3 times a day for five months solid and through my periods.

I "think" I have been applying less when I am OK and more if I am feeling bad. So the dosage is all over the place.
That can't be good, surly?

My period ended a week ago but my breasts started swelling as soon as it was over. And the same happened with the period before last. There was around 2 weeks between them.

The last two days I have had what I would describe as waves of clinical depression.

I would not have compared it to PMS as it was debilitating for a couple of hours when all I could do was keep busy or lie under the duvet and cry.
It began with a day of de-realization were I felt spaced out and half in a dream and then crippling depression type waves.

I have not felt like that for years and it scared me, but I have had these waves of depression they last a few days and go. Horrible none the less. I don't know if they were hormone related in the past as I never made that connection at the time.

I have noticed I am having light spotting too like I am about to start another period just one week after the end of my last one.

In short, my cycles are all over the place and I am scared to stop using the cream but scared to increase it. I don't know if its the cream that is causing this horrible depression or whether it's because I have dropped the amount without realising it or because I am not applying the same amount daily.

It may well not be related to my hormones... obviously.

Me and my partner have both picked up a terrible cold virus and I am wondering if that is the cause. Whilst he seemed to be really sick with it, unusually, I was physically not too bad which is very strange as normally it's the other way around.

You suggested in your last letter that I stop applying it now for 14 days and only apply it the last 14 days of my cycle. But I don't know what my cycle is anymore. It used to be very regular now its all over the place.

What would you suggest for me to try with the cream? When should I stop applying it?

Sorry for the many questions and apparent panic. Things have been great and I have been confident with the cream.

I always follow your advice to the T and use your cream too :)

Comments for Liz UK

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Jun 22, 2013
 Update Concerns
by: Liz

Started my period today :(
1 week after I ended my last one.

So at least now I know why I had severe Depression and de-realisation although never had this for years and when I used to have it I never made the link to it being hormonal.

So, the question is.

Why?

Too much too long?

Too little?

Too erratic in dosage?

Should I not apply any at all now until day 14?

I AM relieved it was hormonal because I couldn't put a link to it and it was horrible I was worried it was the start of clinical depression.

It's strange how many symptoms have gone and continue to be gone and yet my period is more frequent and the PMT 2 days prior is intense on an emotional and metal level.

Bit confused as to what I should do.. or what I have done that has caused this last month to bring 3 periods with some terrible PMT symptoms.

I DO have a virus that my partner has been quite sick with whilst I seem to be fairing better which as I say, is unusual. It's normally the other way around.

Any advise or thoughts are appreciated Wray,

Liz
Jun 23, 2013
 Liz UK
by: Wray

Hi Liz It seems our server site is having problems, we have notified them about it. I still can't post my reply to you on your other page, but it seems this one is working, so I'll post it here. As I think I've answered most of the questions you've asked here.....
You mustn't forget every site, be they forums, blogs, heavy weights like Mercola, and manufacturers all recommend 20-40mg/day. I do not, as I know it will increase testosterone and oestrogen levels. It follows a natural course....
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → Progesterone → 17-OH-Progesterone → Androstenedione → Testosterone → Oestrone ⇄ Oestradiol → Oestriol (also Oestrone → Oestriol)
See this detailed graph of the pathway by Genova Diagnostics.
In both men and women testosterone is always produced first, prior to it's conversion to the oestrogens. In women most of it is converted, luckily! To overcome any dominance of the two hormones, which can occur as we all know only too well, much greater amounts of progesterone are needed. If you looked through those papers on the menstruation page, you'll see one study found giving 40mg/day progesterone did not raise levels to that found in the luteal phase. In fact they were at levels men normally produce, and those found in our follicular phase. A perfect amount for stimulating testosterone production, followed by oestrogen conversion. Acne of course is initiated by excess testosterone. This of course increases anger and aggression too. I did suggest you try stopping it and following your cycle, but had no idea your cycles were now erratic. In which case it's not a good thing as you have none to follow. Peri-menopause is a difficult time, the worst I think, having experienced it. Most of the time we spend it with anovulatory cycles when no progesterone is made. But the other two hormones are produced. If you're using the progesterone as erratically as you appear to be, this would account for the problems, as each time you stop or forget to apply, it allows the other two to rise. Please try measuring it, and apply at least twice a day if not more. Levels begin dropping after about 13 hours. You might like to read this comment here. Please have your vitamin D tested, if you or your partner has a viral infection it could be it's too low. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Jun 23, 2013
 Update Concerns
by: Liz

I am applying the cream as normal. In fact, I have increased it in hopes that it may help with these symptoms.

I suspect, over the last month or more I have not been using as much as I was in the first 3 months when oestrogen was dominant...I suspect once the worst of those symptoms eased so did my focus on the cream.

It's been 5 months and at the most I was applying 400 mgs but I would estimate no more than 200 mg these last 4 weeks and maybe this is why my periods are all over the place and my symptoms seem to be returning even adding new ones.

Estrogen has become dominant again (?)

If I apply 400mg a day from now on and wait it out. Do you think that's the best thing to do?

I am sorry for asking the same questions..but the thought of just stopping it or dropping the dose when I have seen an increase in symptoms and my periods are 3 this month, in my mind seems the wrong thing to do.

I basically applied it very liberally for weeks and then slowed down but not in any measured manner and I suspect I dropped too much too suddenly.

I keep reading that pro cream seems to stop working at around 6 months and symptoms return and we should take a break from anything between 2 weeks to 2 years...depending in the source...

I dunno, I just feel stopping it would be wrong as I don't think I truly managed to make progesterone dominant long enough to keep it so.

Confused.

Jun 23, 2013
 Update Concerns
by: Wray

Hi Liz I hope my belated reply has helped. Take care Wray
Jun 23, 2013
 Thanks
by: Liz UK

Hi Wray,

MANY thanks for replying. It can't be easy remembering all of the different details for each person.

My D levels are much higher than the typical. If you recall my D3 test came back at 164 but I have started taking 5000 IUs again this week.

I have been doing some research on when I purchased my last Natpro supply and also measuring out 3mg in a syringe that I remove the needle from. (It holds 3mls) and it's quite a revelation in
what I have discovered.

I purchased 9 tubes of Natpro and they arrived 25th May and I started using them almost straight away as I had just about run out of my last tube.

I have 5 full tubes left from the 9 I purchased so I have used 4 since around the 27th May.

4 tubes over 4 weeks but as I say I have not been applying much compared to the amounts I was when I was aiming for the 400mg mark.

I have just measured 3mls of the cream and was quite surprised at how much cream that amounts to.

400mg progesterone in the cream equates to 12 mils of Natpro and I know for a fact I have not been applying anything close to that amount for a while.
Possibly around 100mgs these last 10 days.

So, that explains everything and I am so angry at myself for not being more methodical in my application and measuring.

After all, a prescription oral pill or even a hormone patch delivers a specific amount which is controlled. I have just been too casual.

This in turn has probably caused the erratic periods on top of the return of old and new PMS symptoms.

Anyway, as from tomorrow I will measure 12 mills of Natpro and divide that into 2 applications. 6mls in the morning and 6mls at night and continue for as long as it takes and then after some weeks of stability, I will start to reduce 1ml a week until I am applying around 6mls daily.

I hope that's the correct way to go with this.

Sorry for the panic. It's quite obvious where the problem lies.

Kind Regards,

Liz

Jun 25, 2013
 Thanks
by: Wray

Hi Liz Well at least you give me full details, unlike some! And if at a loss I look back over the page. But of course in this instance I can't, we're still having server site problems too, so please continue to use this page when replying. Although your vitamin D levels are better than some, please never stop taking the 5000iu, I'll guarantee your level will have dropped. A friend when tested a year ago had a level of 347.5nmol/L. She dropped her dose from 15,000iu to 5000iu. She had a test the other day and her level is now 177.5nmol/L, a considerable drop. Bless you for taking the time to check your measurements. I wish others were more thorough about it, as I'm sure that's where the problem lies, it's not just you! Do let me know if this sorts you out, I would be interested to hear. Take care Wray
Jun 26, 2013
 Thank you
by: Liz

Wray,

The problem with me (And humanity!) is;

We don't like reading the TOS or the small print.

We throw away the Instruction Manual from all devices we buy, we click the "Agree" box on any Terms Of Service or "User License" that pops up and ignore any small print on forms we sign.

I for one am very much like this.

We want answers and we want them now! lol

I know you always provide links and sometimes I do look but often they are all techno babble so I just read the bullet points of your advice and I know that sometimes it's important to read the links and "small print"

I KNOW this cream works and I KNOW your cream is the best with the highest ratio of USP Progesterone.

I have only myself to blame.

PS: I had to refrain myself from telling one of the posters off here... totally off topic rants about iron levels and asking your advise... I do so feel for you!

Thanks for taking the time to respond to those that do listen and follow your advise and even for those that say they will and then don't! (Like me!)

Liz
Jun 27, 2013
 Thank you
by: JL

Hi Liz

Well you had me in stitches now reading your reply to Wray .... "We want answers and we want them now! lol". It's so typical though and when things don't work we are ourselves "why"?

You are going to feel so much better when you start to use the correct amount of Natpro when you should i.e. nothing less than twice a day!!

One more thing, reading the research papers really does help! lol

Hope you feel better soon.
Jun 28, 2013
 Thank you
by: Wray

Hi Liz Well at least you have a good humour, and not only make me laugh but can laugh at yourself! I do agree about the small print, I think it's because we are bombarded with so much now. And yes to quick answers, I'm very impatient! I was so delighted how you were responding to the progesterone at last, but then dismayed by your previous post. Racking my brains as to what could have gone wrong, I hope this is the answer and you just improve from now on. Please let me know. And thanks so much for the kind words about the cream. In the early days, 15-16 years ago I tried out a few creams, but nothing as bad as this comment here....."I recently ran out of progesterone cream due to the Natpro being out of stock.. I than ordered the Progensa like you recommended but had to stop that because the cream was so sticky on my body and never absorbed I couldn't stand it... I tried powdering myself afterwards to soak the stickiness up but that didn't work.." Horrors! I had recommended it based on the ingredients and not on trying it, so will now know not to. Bless you for your support re the 'iron lady', I was very touched by that. As I said to you on the page, I do recommend nutrients besides progesterone, and had helped her in the past. But it is a tough decision for me, my brother keeps telling me I don't have to answer them all. The toughest decision is of course all those women who use another brand, whom I still answer. Some of them are such time wasters I don't know why I still do it! This is but one extreme example, I didn't know someone could go on so! See......here. Take care Wray
Jun 28, 2013
 Flagyl Anti Biotics
by: Liz UK

Hello Wray

Had some teeth removed (failed dental bridge with 2 year infection) and they removed the 2 teeth and after 2 days I started having pain so I started the Metronidazole 200mg 3 times a day.

I avoid Anti Biotics as best as I can and the only time I have taken them is due to this failed and infected dental bridge.

Anyway, I am applying 400mg of Natpro now for four days. It stopped what I believed to be a very early period coming.

I still feel down at times albeit not clinically depressed and more in line with PMS downer.

Two questions:

1) Will this Antibiotic effect the use of the Natpro and/or mess my hormones up?

2) 400mg might stop my period coming at all so.. am I OK to continue applying daily with no break ?

Thanks :)
Jun 28, 2013
 PS!
by: Liz

Oh...

I do take Probiotics too. I take 2 capsules at night with a glass of water.

I know it's best not to take probiotics and antibiotics at the same time so to avoid them cancelling each other out...or so I have read.
Jun 29, 2013
 Flagyl Anti Biotics
by: Wray

Hi Liz This is bad luck, they are not my favourite, only because of the abuse. How effective they are when used correctly, but now we are getting resistant strains of bugs. They don't affect the Natpro, and I haven't heard of them affecting hormones. From my own experience I've found an infection can affect hormones. So it's best you take them, but please up your vitamin D intake. Definitely take the probiotics too, best a few hours between each though, gives time for the probiotics to work before being blotted. 400mg/day can stop bleeding, some have found higher is needed. And yes it is safe to continue daily with no break. In fact there are brands of progestins given where there is no break. You might be interested in this paper here. This is another worth reading, see here. The author argues the point that the 400 odd periods we now get in a lifetime are dangerous, and that we should only have 100 or so. If following her line of reasoning, we should all be on progesterone daily with no break. The alternative is having many babies, I'll opt for the progesterone! Take care Wray
Jul 05, 2013
 I'd like to add something...
by: Verleen

I know Wray won't mind! :-)

Information on prescription medications and answering such questions is my job….

Antibiotics have been known to affect added hormones, such as when someone is taking the combined oral contraceptives. Some of them reduce the effectiveness of them, because they affect how fast estrogen is processed out of the body. This increases the risk of pregnancy, because the person may not absorb as much of the estrogen as they should.

They have not, however, been known, so far, to affect someone's natural hormone levels or the progesterone only supplementation from what research I've been able to find.
Jul 08, 2013
 I'd like to add something...
by: Wray

Hi Verleen Thanks for this, I welcome any info that will help us on our journeys. I had no idea that was your job, but then we never touched on the subject. The answer is so helpful though, as it's not something I've looked into. Take care Wray
Jul 18, 2013
 Update 400Mgs
by: Liz UK

Hi Wray.

Just a few things to keep you (And anyone else who's interested) up to date.

As you may recall, I have been using Natpro for some months but for the most part I was guessing the dose and I would estimate I was applying 200mg at the most.

I was all over the place just slapping some on here and there as and when albeit on a daily basis.

Things HAVE been much better. No breast swelling. No more clots, no more heavy periods, no more insomnia or hot flushes during PMT mush less irrational anxiety.

But other things started that are new.

Anger and rage was new to me. Acne is something I have not had for 10 years. My periods has also become erratic, either continual spotting or my a new period starting just days after my last one ended

I am wondering if this was caused because I was applying various amounts of Pprog cream?

Surely upping and downing the dosage of Progesterone is going to effect your cycle associated symptoms ?

I had a set back 5 weeks ago. I felt like the old symptoms were coming back, My boobs were super painful and swollen again and the anger and rage and acne etc

So, as you may recall, I realised I had not been applying a level dose and certainly not applying 12ml (400mgs) daily at all.

So I started measuring 12mls and applying 6mls in the morning and 6ml at night.

My period came last week. Heavier than previous periods but no clots and I had some physical PMT symptoms mainly sore boobs and spots. I also had bad waves of depression which hit me from no where then just vanished (More below)

I applied 12ml all the way through my period and still I bled plenty.

It's been a week since my period ended.

I am getting ever so slight spotting and strange out of the blue PMT blues. I feel like I am about to start my period again but I should not be yet for 3 weeks.

My boobs are not swollen though.

My question is this:

I am using 400 mg (12ml of your cream) daily, an amount that has shown to actually stop bleeding in many women but had no effect on my blood loss at all, in fact, if anything I bled more than I have been of late.

Does that indicate that I still have high doses of Oestrogen?

If so, does that possibly explain why I may be experiencing Oestrogen Dominance symptoms ?

Also:

Even though I had been applying Natpro for 4 months, at various amounts of around 200mg prior to increasing to 400mg, is it possible that the increase I started 4 weeks ago has triggered Oestrogen Dominance symptoms?

I know there are no hard and fast rules, I guess I am assuming I have an excessive amount of Oestrogen because the 400mg Natpro had no effect on my first period blood loss plus I had some pretty bad mood lows too.

The lows by the way, always seem to come on at around 4pm to 6pm ! Then they pass just as fast as they hit me and I am rational again.
Jul 20, 2013
 Update 400Mgs
by: Wray

Hi Liz I'm happy you're sticking to the one amount, it will help. Going up and down will not! I've looked through your other page, but can't find your age, just this phrase in February "When I was younger, up to the age of around 38", which indicates you're older now. I'm sure you're in Peri-menopause and we've discussed this before? Progesterone does help, but won't regulate periods once they've become erratic. And it takes time for the heavy bleeding to slow down. I gave you the the link to our Menstruation page, and said if the bleeding is very heavy it could be you need other nutrients to help. Although 400mg/day has helped some women, others have found not only do they need more, but they found they needed the nutrients too. If the uterus is inflamed and the lining weak, which it will be with heavy bleeding, the nutrients are needed to help heal it. Ovulation becomes very erratic in P-M, so some months you'll get the 50 hour oestrogen surge prior to ovulation, which means levels peak. But not the 50 hour progesterone surge which should accompany it. Without this you'll be left with oestrogen dominance symptoms. Increasing, decreasing, erratic use, when first starting progesterone can all cause oestrogen dominance symptoms. So if you had been only using 200mg/day, and increased to 400mg that would have caused a spike in oestrogen, but it should pass quickly. Serotonin levels begin dropping around 4pm, as it's being used to make melatonin. Or have you eaten something earlier which could have caused your blood glucose to drop? Either of these could cause the low you experience. Take care Wray
Jul 20, 2013
 Thanks Wray
by: Liz UK

I think I am just having Oestrogen dominance symptoms because I have ramped up the dosage to 400mg.

I will just sit it out.

The mid afternoon lows may well have been a result of me reducing my anti depressant (Dothiepine) which I take at 10pm every night.

The ' half life' of the drug levels may drop at X amount of hours after I took the last dose and then causing withdrawal symptoms.

I have been slowly reducing it for a year now but had not noticed any withdrawal symptoms.

They have passed now anyway :)

Thanks again Wray
Jul 20, 2013
 Thanks Wray
by: Wray

Hi Liz Well I'm pleased you're going to sit it out. And the AD was probably the cause of the lows, if you are reducing the dose. They are difficult to reduce without some side effects. Take care Wray
Aug 17, 2013
 Pessaries
by: Liz UK

Hello Wray,

I have been applying Natpro every day of every cycle for months now, albeit only for 2 months at 400 mgs

Quite by accident, I discovered that here in the UK you can get on prescription natural progesterone pessaries which are given to treat PMS.

The pessaries come in 200mg and 400mg so I went to my doctor and convinced her to prescribe me. I took a tube of your cream and explained how much better I was as a result of it but at the amounts I am applying, I couldn't continue to afford the £100 a month for the foreseeable future.

She was a little reluctant as it was not something she had prescribed before but she knows I am well researched in health so gave me 200mg once a day (30 pessaries)

Anyway, long story short. I have been applying 200mg of Natpro and using one pessary at nights for the last ten days.

My period was due on the 10th August. I started today. One week late.

The last 5 days have been a living Hell presenting PMS symptoms I have not experienced for many months.
I got cramps yesterday so bad I could not stand up straight. 4 nights of insomnia and such rage and depression it almost ended my holiday.

I am baffled. Technically, I have been applying the same amount of Progesterone.

The pessaries I use contain the same substance as your cream and other than that, just vegetable oils.

The only conclusion I can reach is the delivery method of the pessaries is much more direct and undiluted and this has by default caused one Hell of an Oestrogen Dominance reaction.

I won't lie. I stopped using the pessaries 3 nights ago and went back to the cream I was that miserable.

But I want to continue to use them as clearly I am still suffering with Oestrogen dominance despite the amount of time I have been applying Natpro and the amounts of 400mg daily.

In all the months I have been using Progesterone, I have never encountered such an horrific emotional PMS.

It's been months since I had any insomnia and even on the lower dose of 150 to 200 mg of Natpro, the insomnia stopped so this episode confuses me.

You will probably ask me if my D levels are good (they are 164 on my last serum level test) and whether I have had any stress and yes I did have some stress at the start of the holiday but no more than any other type of stress I would encounter in any other given situation so the only thing that differs is the fact I used a natural progesterone pessary in combination with Natpro cream to make up the daily dose of 400mg.

I know pessaries offer an excellent delivery system I just didn't expect it to be THAT excellent!

Also, when you are applying 12ml of cream a day, you soon run out of places to rotate. It's such a lot of cream and I do try to rotate but I wonder if I am experiencing derma fatigue after all these months and all of the cream I have applied.

Anyway, not sure what to do anymore.

Many Thanks for your help and advise Wray
Aug 21, 2013
 Pessaries
by: Wray

Hi Liz Very pleased your doctor did give in and gave you the script for the pessaries. Two things could have caused the reaction. One you are right and you've suddenly responded to them. Or they are not dissolving well and you are not getting enough. I do know the uterus takes up much of the progesterone, excellent if pregnant or having uterine problems, see here. Although they instilled the progesterone directly into the uterus, the vagina is so close the difference won't be that great. So sorry you went through such an awful time though, most extraordinary. To my mind your vitamin D could be higher, that's if following the less conservative range of 175 to 250nmol/L. I try to keep mine in the 230-250nmol/L range. I'm not convinced by the dermal fatigue theory, see Progesterone Misconceptions. One could also apply the same principle to the vagina. I suggest cutting the pessaries into 1/4's and using one 1/4 to begin with, then build up. Hopefully this will prevent those awful symptoms. I really wouldn't bother about rotating it, put the cream all over you. The skin comprises 95% keratinocytes which each have many progesterone receptors. 12ml is too much to try and rotate. Let's hope the pessaries help if you use them by building them up slowly. Let me know if it does. Take care Wray
Aug 21, 2013
 Update 400Mgs
by: Liz UK

Just to follow on from the above:

My period came but it lasted just one day and was very light.
Had 3 days of blissful normality and then I started getting PMS symptoms AGAIN only this time they're my usual flavour and not as severe.

Breasts are swollen (This once stopped even on smaller doses of P cream) night sweats have made a return it seems (these stopped months ago) day flushes kicked up again again not had these since before I started applying P cream.

I honestly feel like I have built up a tolerance to the cream.
I am still on 400mg daily with no breaks but all of my "pre progesterone" PMS symptoms are making a return each month they seem to get worse... i think?

But then the P must be doing something as there is also some hormonal upset for me to get so much terrible cramping but then just one day of almost no flow is bizarre for me... I cannot make sense..why so much pain and so little blood?? Its strange for me.

My periods have always been regular before progesterone and heavy with clots (they're not like that anymore THANK GOD)

I daren't just STOP applying the cream.

So..I guess my question is this:

When faced with what is clearly oestrogen symptoms should I just keep on applying more cream until it eases?

If this only happens just before my period, am I going to be OK going back to a set dosage after my period as I thought upping and downing the dose was a no no?

Should I increase and apply 500mg ? (which would be 200mg pessary and 300mg cream)

Should I have a break when my period starts?

ughh! Sorry for all of the questions.
Aug 22, 2013
 Update 400Mgs
by: Wray

Hi Liz You now have me very confused as I thought all your symptoms had come back when you tried the pessary. But you're implying above that you still had them while using the cream. Is this correct? Hadn't anything been helped? Please clarify for me. Take care Wray
Aug 22, 2013
 Thank you..Update.
by: Liz UK

Hi Wray,

Sorry, to clarify.

Been using Natpro since Winter. Five months or more but at various amounts. Then I increased and started measuring 400mg daily around 6 weeks ago.

To try and keep the cost down, doctor prescribed me 200mg pessaries one each day.

I started using the 200mg pessaries and used 1 at night for 10 days in combination with 200mg of your cream.

This meant I was applying 400mg,
the same amount I was applying for a month previous just using the Natpro cream.

My last period was a week late (Never happened before) I had the most awful PMS (Insomnia which I haven't had for months since using your cream at ANY dose) depression, rage etc
(ALL ON MY HOLIDAY!)

So i stopped the pessaries and just went back to the Natpro cream again at the same dose. 400mg.

Then 3 days later, I started to have VERY bad cramps (Never had them that bad in my life) which was fine by me! Meant my period was coming and all would be calm BUT I only bled for one day with almost next to no flow. (Never happened before either)

That was a week ago.

I haven't used the pessaries since I stopped them and have just stuck to the 400mg natpro.

But already, my breasts are swollen and sore and I am having night sweats (Not had that symptom for months) and I feel like I am close to having another period again just a week after the period from
hell that never really actually "happened"

Before using progesterone my periods were always regular to the day.

I would like to stick to the pessaries and combine with Natpro but the last PMS was truly awful and it scared me into thinking it was the pessaries.

I don't know whether the Progesterone is no longer working OR I am experiencing Oestrogen Dominance symptoms because I need more!

So I don't know whether to up the dose to 500mg

I also don't know whether I should stop using progesterone to allow my period to come... but I am scared that Oestrogen will get the upper hand (It already has)

I have been using the cream through my period since I started and I have never missed a period except for the last one that did not really amount to much at all.

IN short, I am still fighting with Oestrogen but I don't know why.

I have been using 400mg of Natpro progesterone for around 6 weeks.

I increased the dose from 100 to 200mg daily to 400mg approx 6 weeks ago

PMS symptoms HAD been much much much better then this last one has knocked me for six and now I am feeling like I am about to start another period just days after the worst period from HELL.

Money is a concern but so is my sanity.

Thanks :)


Aug 22, 2013
 Thank you..Update
by: Wray

Hi Liz Thanks for the clarity, I'm relieved things had improved! But it's so awful this set back. Money is a concern, it always is, oh how I wish it weren't! Can you try my suggestion of using 1/4 pessary a day only, to 'build' it up? This might not cause such a reaction. With much of the progesterone going to the uterus, it would affect that area more than others. Progesterone does stop cramps, it's one of the roles it has during pregnancy. To keep the uterus 'quiet' and prevent contractions, see here and here. As you'll see from the papers, oestrogen rises and initiates the inflammatory reaction. Obviously this occurred to you too, but very severely. It seems a great pity to increase the amount you're using, as the 400mg/day was working. Can you try the pessary idea first and see if it helps. Maybe stay on the cream for a few more days, or a couple of weeks, until you feel stable, before experimenting? You had only been on the 400mg/day for 6 weeks, so not very long. I know I keep asking this, but what is your vitamin D level now? Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Aug 22, 2013
 Reply - Thanks
by: Liz UK

Hi Wray,

Wow. I knew it HAD to be the pessaries as never in my time of applying progesterone had I had such a severe reaction.

I was hysterically crying, shaking with rage, exhausted, not sleeping and all this on my holiday. My poor partner.

I have to give credit and as I keep reminding my partner up until this recent "reaction" my insomnia had gone, no more night sweats or day flushes and my anxiety and PMS had almost gone and my breasts no longer grew and got sore.

Then I upped to 400mg and got a reaction THEN I swapped 200mg of Natpro for the a 200mg pessary and all Hell broke lose and my partner advised me; "Don't start the pessaries until you're back from your holiday" Shame I did not listen to him.

I had no idea how much more it absorbed. Its like the difference between smoking a drug and injecting it!

I have read about "Oestrogen Dominance" reactions and I thought I had had some to some degree but nothing like that... I honestly don't think I have ever been that messed up with PMS in my life!

I am due on my period any day I can just tell... all the signs are here (AGAIN!) and I hope it's a normal period in terms of blood loss.

Once this periods and associated PMS is over with I will try 1/4 of pessary as per your suggestion and gradually increase by 1/4 each month.
Thanks for the suggestion.

I was/am confused why the strong reaction. But I have to say, I never lost any to leakage and I have read that they put more than the 200mg in there to make up for the leakage issue...

*sighs*

I would give anything to just stop having periods..like now!


My last D level was 164 and I had that done around 4 months ago.

I will hold my hand up and admit I did not take my Vit D on holiday because as such a good serum level I really did not feel 14 days of no Vit D would do much damage.

I am now taking around 5000 to 8000 IUs a day via micronised Vitamin D liquid (The most potent available)

I would like to add...when I am NOT due on I am fine :) Healthy, working out, exercising etc.. not had that level of energy for years.

Not sure if that is a Vit D thing (I was deficient) or progesterone but something has changed with my health and for the better.

Kind Regards, Liz

Aug 23, 2013
 Reply - Thanks
by: Wray

Hi Liz Thanks for even more clarity. I'm delighted to hear you're feeling so much better you are able to work out etc, and have more energy, that is good news. I would be very interested to hear if the 1/4 pessary does the trick, but suggest you get stable first before trying it. And avoid any stress or holidays! Well 164nmol/L is within the 125-250nmol/L range for vitamin D, but not in the less conservative range of 175-250nmol/L range. I keep mine around 230-250nmol/L, and really feel you would do better if much higher than your current level. Particularly after all you've been through. It's both Progesterone and Vitamin D together which has done the trick. They work synergistically, plus you'll see from the page how similar each is in their affect on cells. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Aug 29, 2013
 Vitamin D Toxicity
by: Liz UK

Hi Wray.

When I got my blood test back (Vit D3) and it said 164 blood serum levels, the letter said I should stop taking any D supplements as I could be taking too much.

So, I went to The Vitamin D Council and read the following:

"A blood test to measure your 25(OH)D levels can tell you whether you have too high of vitamin D levels. If your 25(OH)D levels are above 150 ng/ml this is considered potentially toxic and potentially harmful to your health."

And so I stopped taking it as I consider The Vitamin D Council to be experts in this field just as I consider you to be an expert in the field of Progesterone.

However, following your advise I am now taking 5 to 10,000 IUs of D3 again as well as Magnesium which both work in synergy.

Did you know that if people start taking high doses of Vit D3 and they don't have enough Magnesium in their bodies, the D3 will rape what reserves they have (if any) and this in turn will cause Magnesium deficiency symptoms which includes anxiety, confusion, poor memory, depression etc?

Also, taking Magnesium WITH Vitamin D will help with the side effects of taking high levels of D3..because as I say, D3 needs Magnesium to work and if we don's have enough reserves then taking D3 can cause undesirable symptoms.

http://nutritionalmagnesium.com/blog/311-vitamin-d-and-magnesium.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/029195_magnesium_vitamin_D.html

I just thought it was important to mention as you are quite right in the importance of taking D3 but I think it's equally important that women should take 400mg of Magnesium at the same time if they are going to start D3 supplementation.

Liz

Aug 31, 2013
 Vitamin D Toxicity
by: Wray

Hi Liz I agree with Dr Cannell, although I have seen 200ng/ml as the toxic level. My sister in law overdid the vitamin D and her level rose to 350ng/ml or 875nmol/L, she felt wonderful! You are getting confused between nmol/L and ng/ml. Your 164nmol/L is the equivalent of 65.6ng/ml which is why I told you it could be higher. The minimum recommend is 50ng/ml or 125nmol/L, the less conservative believe it should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L. I keep mine around the 230-250nmol/L level. The UK uses nmol/L, Dr Cannel being American uses ng/ml. The NHS has the most conservative view about vitamin D, their 'adequate' level is 50nmol/L, or 20ng/ml. Even the FDA have raised theirs to 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L. I'm surprised I didn't mention magnesium to you. Dr Cannell is emphatic we all need more. I advise most people to take more, particularly if in pain, as low levels increase substance P, see here and here. Substance P is a nociceptive, neuropeptide involved in causing pain and nausea. Many people experience pain when taking or increasing their vitamin D levels, simply because there's not sufficient magnesium. It's low in our soils, therefore low in our foods. Many eat/drink dairy which is high in calcium, very low in magnesium. Calcium is an excitatory mineral which causes muscles to contract, magnesium relaxes them. The tenseness many have could well be due to excess calcium. Magnesium helps sleep, calms us etc, calcium being excitatory won't. In excess it causes depression and heart disease, taking magnesium helps to remove the calcium from the blood and deposit it the bones. Vitamin K2, another co-factor for vitamin D, also prevents calcium being deposited in soft tissue, prevents cancer too. Substance P inhibits progesterone, see here, but if enough is used, progesterone suppresses substance P, see here. "Accumulating evidence indicates that the neuropeptide substance P is predominantly involved in neurogenic inflammation and pain perception...... Intriguingly, decreased pain sensitivity is found to be associated with high plasma progesterone levels. We hypothesize that progesterone may attenuate nociception and associated inflammatory response." Whereas oestrogen stimulates substance P, see here. Continued below
Aug 31, 2013
 Vitamin D Toxicity Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Liz Another is the copper/zinc system, each opposes the other. High copper causes depression, and psychosis, conversely low zinc can too, as the ratio is out. Oestrogen lowers zinc levels, raises copper, progesterone does the opposite. Ideally a blood, urine and hair analysis should be done on everyone for all the various hormones, minerals, vitamins, neurotransmitters and more, but they never are. The medical profession stick to their tests which show nothing about the missing elements so necessary to life. Or even look at the ratios between them. The body is so hugely complex, although each 'dot' within the vast complex is so simple. The problem lies in working out which domino fell first, connecting all the dots. So we look at symptoms and try to guess what element or elements are missing, in the hopes we find the right one. Take low magnesium, it allows substance P to rise, but this in turn lowers progesterone. So does the person have low progesterone because all the symptoms are there, or are they low in magnesium, or maybe both? Take care Wray
Aug 31, 2013
 My confusion - Sorry
by: Liz UK

Yes you're correct I did think I was at the very high level so being at 65 is not high at all.

Thank you and sorry for my confusion.

I read that depending on your health (Virus, flu etc) our bodies can easily consume 10,000 IUs a day so I am absolutely not going to stop taking it again!

Good to hear about Magnesium.

I once followed a blog which I can't seem to find and the lady was much like you in the sense she advised people but for her on the subject of Vit D.
She had so many people complaining about "Vitamin D side effects" and stopped taking it because of them when all they needed was to increase Magnesium as she kept trying to educate them.

So that always stuck with me :)

Many Thanks again. Liz

PS: The comment submission word thing, below states "wombat" ...how apt! (me) lol
Sep 01, 2013
 My confusion - Sorry
by: Wray

Hi Liz Yes! Of course the NHS will say it's at toxic levels, but they are not keeping up with the studies coming out. A study done on hunter-gathers is interesting, obviously no supplements used there! See here and here. Dr Cannell did a page on the two studies, he read the full papers, I've only got the abstracts which I've given you. I'm not sure if you can access his paper if not a member, but this is the link here. He says "One of the highest levels was a 65 year old whose level was around 70 ng/ml. The highest level overall was in a pregnant woman (105 ng/ml), 5 points higher than the usual upper limit, a limit most practicing physicians think is toxic." 70ng/ml is 175nmol/L and 105ng/ml is 262.5nmol/L. The NHS would tell her to stop going in the sun! 100% right about an infection, any inflammation will drop levels. One woman who wrote in to this site was taking 5000iu/day and her level was not rising at all, hadn't for years apparently. She had some inflammatory disorder, so I told her it didn't surprise me! I know how the vitamin D/magnesium woman feels. Pity you can't remember her site, sounds good, please try. This is an interesting comment on adverse reactions to vitamin D, magnesium and progesterone too, see here. Yes 'wombat'! Take care, lol Wray
Sep 15, 2013
 Tube Amount Short
by: Liz UK

Wray,

I have been applying 400mg (12ml) of Natpro for around 9 weeks now.

My periods are very light with mostly dark brown spotting and lining than actual red flow.

My PMS has been bad the days leading up to the period albeit no hot flushes no night sweats no heavy bleeding no clots and no sleepiness nights.

Things symptoms had been better whilst using lower doses of Natpro but then they seemed to gradually come back and so I increased to 400mg of Natpro which as yet has not yielded better results.

I am unsure whether the cream is no longer having the same effect or it is exciting the Oestrogen which will get better with time.

My last 2 periods came only 2 weeks apart meaning I am getting PMS twice as much as I did prior to applying Natpro albeit not as bad as before I started using it. I just am a bit worried why my PMS symptoms appear to be returning...

Taking between 10,000 and 15,000 IUs of D3 and Magnesium and a multi Vit.
Last blood level serum test for D3 was 164 and I still take it.

I am hoping things will settle in time so I will keep applying it at 400mg at 6ml twice daily rotating the application areas.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Sep 18, 2013
 Tube Amount Short
by: Wray

Hi Liz Well I'm delighted some things have improved. Evidently your oestrogen is peaking mid-luteal phase, which it should do, but this is what's causing the PMS. You did say earlier that the 400mg/day was helping you, but now you say not. Looking back at your early remarks I feel so much has changed. It's not a quick fix, you might like to read RJ's comment on Amy's page, right at the bottom. Don't forget you are now in Peri-menopause when our cycles become very erratic. Progesterone can't fix this, only lessen the impact of adverse symptoms. Bleeding can be heavy, to spotting, to flooding. It can come in 2 week intervals, or 3 month intervals, until finally at Menopause we stop bleeding, such a relief too! Please consider taking 100mg/day zinc. It could be your copper is too high, having had so much excess oestrogen which raises it. Zinc lowers copper, so too does progesterone, which raises zinc. Excess copper can cause anxiety, depression, rages, including psychotic behaviour. It could be this which is causing the excessive PMS symptoms. Let me know if the zinc helps you. Re the short amount. Another woman who also uses a syringe complained about the same thing. It seems a lot can depend on the accuracy of the syringe, the accuracy of removing the amount needed, how much is left in the nozzle, is the syringe washed out, difficulty in getting it all from the tube etc. A distributor who is helping the other woman, bought a medical syringe dispensing 5ml and found she got 12 x 5ml with some left in the tube. Take care Wray
Sep 21, 2013
 Update
by: Liz UK

Thanks Wray,

I think I found Amy's page where she wanted a refund as she felt the 400mg a day was not working in her favour and she was advised that it can take 6 months.

I will bear that in mind.

I feel like since I increased the dosage to 400mgs the PMS has got worse than when I was on a lower dose but obviously the lower dose must have been still troubling me or else I would not have increased it.

Because it's worse I am going to assume this is the progesterone exciting the Oestrogen symptoms (Oestrogen Dominance) and I will just hope things settle.

The progesterone is definitely effecting my hormones as my cycles are erratic (When previous to Natpro they were regular as clockwork) I have almost no bleeding (Were once I was losing obscene amounts of blood) I no longer have night sweats and day time hot flushes.

I *am* getting swollen breasts again. Last cycle they were sore and swollen as soon as I stopped bleeding and then my following period began 2 weeks later.

It's been around 9 days since I stopped bleeding and I "think* I am having mid cycle symptoms. Like PMS but no period. Anxiety and light sleep as well a breasts starting to feel tender and a little swollen.
This is new to me but I understand this is linked to mid cycle ovulation.

Everything is screaming Oestrogen dominance, this I know.

If you recall, I rather stupidly started using prescribed 200mg Progesterone pessaries at night for 10 days and just applied 200mg of Natpro instead of the 400mg.

All Hell broke loose. I haven't tried them since. The Oestrogen reaction was just terrible. Too much to bare partly because I was not sure whether I should stop using it to allow my period to come because it was a week late. (Never been late whilst using progesterone)

Anyway.. the measuring issue, I am in discussion with the lady I purchased the last 20 tubes from.
Perhaps the next batch I will ask for the syringe she used and see how that works out. I have been using a syringe that came with my B12 injections.

Many thanks Wray, I will start the zinc as per your suggestion. :)
Sep 22, 2013
 Patience
by: Liz UK

Hi Wray,

I just wanted to add that I am ever so grateful to and for you and to repeat that I do trust Natpro and believe your research that supports it.

I also wish to apologise if I am coming over as frustrated "at" you.

Whilst I am frustrated it is not aimed at you or your cream.

I am well used to the "worse before better" process of all types of health issues and this issue is no different it seems.

The body is complex and doesn't like change it would seem.

If I could afford it I would apply a tube a day.. I am thinking of trying those pessaries again + 400mg of Naptro to literally drown the Oestrogen in me!! lol ( I won't though)

I have been poorly and house bound with first a bad cold/virus and then later, but at the same time, a stomach bug for the the last 3 weeks.

Maybe this is in part the reason I am feeling worse I am always catching bugs that my partner shakes off in a day and I am in bed for weeks and this gets me down emotionally too.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am not doubting your product or the use of it at all... I just get concerned and frustrated when things "flare up"

The good news is no spotting since my last very light period :)

Bless you for your kindness and patience with hormonal women like me! lol

Sep 24, 2013
 Update
by: Wray

Hi Liz Bless you for this! I do know how frustrating it all is. Luckily when I started using it, I had no one to talk to, and no internet to look anything up. No book either until I found those of Dr Dalton and Lee, both with opposing views on the amount to use too! I had started getting Hot Flushes, I never could make up my mind which was worse, those or the depression/endless crying. But the hot flushes went in 10 days, then I ran out of progesterone and they returned! That was enough to convince me it was good, so I continued with it. And then slowly all the other 'age related', or so I thought, symptoms went. I have told Jules I will empty two tubes onto my scale, all I have at the moment. 10 tubes would be better. Unfortunately it only weighs down to 500mg. If that doesn't work, my brother has one which weighs down to 100mg. We need to get to the bottom of this problem you have. I'll let her know. Take care Wray
Jun 18, 2014
 9 Month Update
by: Liz UK

Hi Wray,

I understand you're taking a much needed break. I hope you're feeling more relaxed now.

I have been quiet here on the forums because all had been VERY well on the hormonal front for me.

Using 400mg of progesterone daily.

In fact I was feeling SO well I dropped the dose to 200mg because I forgot to apply it simply because I wasn't having any symptoms so like most medication related issues, we tend to miss a beat when we're feeling well.

During this 3 month, symptom free duration, I had no periods other than spotting perhaps twice a week. No cramps.
Still get sore swollen breasts almost all of the month however, but I can live with that.

Then it all came back with a vengeance.
I noticed some weeks back I was waking up after 4 hours sleep for no reason. I managed to get back to sleep within 20 to 30 minutes and I did not feel tired as I am lucky I can sleep in as I work from home.

This continued and now I awake twice after 4 hours each time.
This has been a consistent thing regardless of my cycle.

The last 3 weeks have been absolute Hell emotionally.

I woke up mid cycle (Ovulation?_ And just went into melt down.
And I do mean serious depression almost to a self harm degree. (No history of that)
The spotting lasted 3 days and the 2 weeks that followed were a roller coaster of anxiety, depression, crying, guilt, insomnia, but NO swollen breasts. (Odd)
Can Oestrogen effect you differently from one month to the next?

The PMS increased until my period came which amounted to 5 days of very light spotting and mild cramps. Nothing more than a panty liner needed.

And I felt better for 5 days but not "100%" as the last 2 weeks have been truly awful its left me shaken up.

Now 5 days after my spotting ended I am crying and depressed again. I have a constant stabbing pain in my cervix and very mild cramping which has been with me on and off for the last 3 weeks.

I had a vaginal "wand" type ultrasound scan 3 months ago which revealed nothing but a thickening of the lining of my womb. No fibroids or anything.

I keep reading that Oestrogen is needed to combat these symptoms and my doctor offered to put me on low dose contraceptive pill when I went to see her months ago regarding a none related issue.

I declined.
I am 45 years old.

I have felt so wretched for the last 3 weeks and worry this is going to be how i feel for the rest of my peri menopause.

I am hoping this is just a BAD patch with hormone fluctuations being more drastic and perhaps things will settle in time.

After all, I did have 3 or 4 brilliant months so hormone fluctuations must be harder some months than others.

Is this just the roller-coaster ride of peri-menopause?

Is there ANY chance at all I need Oestrogen now?

Confused and scared (again)

Warm Regards,

Liz
Jun 20, 2014
 9 Month Update
by: Joy

Hi Liz

I have just read this entire thread and what a torrid time you have had. It is such a pity that you stopped using progesterone as it has now allowed estrogen to become the dominant hormone. If you did not reduce from 400mg to 200mg slowly i.e. 16mg at a time, that would have also had its effects.

May I suggest that you re-read Wray’s comments and suggestions again as I feel you would have to start all over. You certainly do not need to take extra estrogen, no woman needs to take extra as there are over 100 estrogen mimics in our environment as it is. Just as well you did not agree to your doctor’s suggestion by going on BCP, that would have made the situation worse. At 45 you are in Peri-Menopause which can be a difficult time for most women but it need not be. Progesterone is needed to help us through this stage and into Menopause.

Just a thought, if you stopped using progesterone, did you stop taking Vitamin D too? They are both needed for better health.
Jun 22, 2014
 Reply - Thanks
by: Liz UK

Hello Joy,

Thanks for replying.

Just to clarify, I never stopped the progesterone.
I just reduced it to 200mg for about 2 weeks because I was symptomless, then went back up to 400mg about 5 weeks ago.

During the time I dropped to 200mg I had a "proper" period instead of this constant on and off spotting with just old blood.

Due to my absolute desperation and fear over not just the severity but the duration of depression, insomnia, PMS rage, I went to my doctor as I knew Wray was on holiday.

Now my doctor has suggested I stop using it altogether and see how I feel for the next 3 weeks. She said:

"Whilst progesterone doesn't usually have much of an effect on our moods, you have been using a high dose every day for many months, perhaps you have too much progesterone"

I have to say I was desperate. I would have tried anything but that said, I am still using 200mg of Progesterone and hoping I can sneak in a repeat prescription without the doctor noticing as stopping it terrifies me.

I feel like my body is screaming "LET ME HAVE A PERIOD!" as if the oestrogen is banging at the doors to be released and because I was on 400mg daily all I was getting was spotting and awful PMT that was continuous more or less.

So perhaps this drop to 200mg will help. I would prefer to have a period as then I have some level of where my cycle is and can have a better understanding of why I am experiencing PMS and how long to expect it.

Having spotting here there and everywhere is fine if you don't have continuous PMS from Hell.

I recently read this article which includes hormone level charts from a woman who had been using p/g cream for 2 weeks of a month for along time and I have to say the results scare me because it makes some sense to me what the doctor is suggesting.

https://www.zimmernutrition.com/about-dr-zimmer/

It is not a new concept that it topically applied progesterone stores in our fat cells and to quote Dr Lee himself:

"There’s no doubt that it’s not a good idea for most women to take large doses of progesterone in any form over a long period of time. That’s just not good medicine, it’s not balanced, it’s not common sense, and it’s bound to cause trouble sooner or later.”

I don't trust doctors period. But I have to try and read between the lines of advise from people selling products too.

It's hard to know who to trust when you're having a hard time and just want to feel "normal" again.

I have started my period today, 10 days after my last round of 4 days spotting. I am assuming it is a period, may just be another round of spotting. My cycle is all over the place.

Thanks again for replying Joy.

Kind Regards,

Jun 22, 2014
 Light Bulb Moment
by: Liz UK

I wish to apologise for any "ranting" I have done.

The last 3 weeks took my totally by surprise and because I wasn't expecting it, I could not understand it and that just makes it all the worse as I try to make sense of the absolute deep depression waves, crying spells, rage and hunger! Never had hunger before... no idea what that was about.

I have come to accept that the 2 or 3 weeks I dropped my dose from 400mg to 200mg basically caught up with me. I felt no problems "at the time" or during those weeks i halved my dosage so when I decided it was time to go back to 400mg I was not expecting to wake up one morning and self harm for the first time in my life.

Let me tell you 3 weeks feeling THAT low (Albeit intermittently) feels like a lifetime and I was worried I was in that state until my menopause which could be years away.

I was looking for answers, reasons, explanations and my doctor could only suggest what was the only option (Other than put me on meds) and that was to try not using the progesterone.

I can't do that. I know there is something logical in progesterone and besides, it HAS done some good. A lot of good but when we hit a bad patch, it's amazing how quickly we forgot the good.

I have written to my doctor and explained I dont intended to reduce the progesterone as it has served me very well for 14 months (more or less) and I explained I strongly suspected this out of the blue, severe PMS nightmare was the result of me halving my dose some weeks back which upset my cycle and flared up the associated symptoms. I asked she see me mid July and see how I feel then.

Its hard to juggle the ego of a professional with something they don't understand or aren't trained to get, that being "nutrition and natural therapy"

I am currently fairly stable. Started a "period" this morning just ten days after my last spotting.. so far no major PMS just some early morning anxiety.

I intend to stick to the 400mg dose and just be careful not to make assumptions that just because I am feeling great one month doesn't mean I can half the dose for 2 or 3 weeks and feel just as great 6 weeks later.

Lesson learnt.

My apologies to Wray for any negativity I gave her and for not thinking clearly about the article I discovered which theorised that long term progesterone use increases testosterone and oestrogen.

Yes, it would as the lady had only been applying 20mg a day for 2 weeks a month so she was in a constant state of Oestrogen dominance.

Once again, my bad.

Thanks again for all of your help, support and research.



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