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Insomnia

by Karen
(Wayne)

Hi Wray, I haven't written in a while because I have been very happy with my progesterone cream but I do still suffer with insomnia even when using the progesterone cream. Since I do not see insomnia in your list of advice I was wondering if you could give me some suggestions on this topic.

I was originally taking 12.5 mg Seroquel along with .25 mg Klonopin and sleeping through the night but very flat and almost apathetic. I stopped taking the Seroquel but am still taking the .25 mg Klonopin because I cannot figure out how to get off it without waking up at 3 a.m. Could you give me your thoughts on what I could do to get off it and still sleep. A cognitive behavioral therapist told me to take 9 mg of Melatonin at night along with the Klonopin and half the Klonopin to try to get off it. He said if I wake up to take another 9 mg. I would like to be able to sleep without medication.

You have been so helpful in the past with the progesterone. Could you give me your thoughts about my sleep problem? Thanks so much. PS: I've been on a benzo at night for about 1-1/2 years. First I was on .5 mg Ativan at night for sleep and now the .25 mg Klonpin.

Comments for Insomnia

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Jul 02, 2011
 How much
by: Annette Canada

You don't mention how much progesterone you are using and what brand? I know a woman and she is 70 years of age. She suffered with insomnia as well, she needs to take 300 milligrams (of Natpro) a day to sleep well. If it's Natpro you should be taking minimum 200 milligrams a day, dividing it in half morning and night. Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to ween yourself off those meds, I think you could in time with the right amount of progesterone, are they all to help you sleep??
Jul 06, 2011
 Insomnia
by: Wray

Hi Karen I'm so delighted the progesterone has helped you. But I'm puzzled it hasn't helped the sleep, as it's usually effective, see here. Are you using sufficient? At the risk of repeating myself, I do recommend 100-200mg/day, more if symptoms are severe. I would suggest you try 200mg/day and see if that helps, increasing gradually until it does. Having said all that, there are other possibilities. A lack of dopamine causes wakefulness, so conversely does an excess, see here. Dopamine is suppressed by oestrogen and prolactin, but is increased slightly by progesterone. Do you find your thoughts race? If so you could be lacking in dopamine. If this is the case, you could try tyrosine, the amino acid precursor to dopamine. We have more info on how to take this on our page Natural Antidepressants. Adenosine is also involved in the wake/sleep cycle. Prolonged wakefulness increases adenosine levels, which by a negative feel back loop, reduces energy levels in the brain, which in turn causes sleep, see here and here. Interestingly progesterone increases adenosine levels, see here. It appears that oxidised glutathione causes wakefulness, see here. I'm running out of space so will start a new comment below. Take care Wray
Jul 06, 2011
 Insomnia
by: Wray

Hi Karen After vitamin D, glutathione is the most important antioxidant in all cells. But it should be in it's reduced form, not oxidised. Or more correctly, there should be about 90% reduced to 10% oxidised. Possibly you're not getting sufficient precursors to make glutathione, which are the amino acids N-acetyl cysteine (NAC), glutamine and glycine. It's pointless taking glutathione itself, as most of it gets destroyed in the gut, besides being hugely expensive. So you could try taking these aminos and see if they help. My suggestion is 2000mg/day NAC, 4000-8000mg/day glutamine and 2000mg/day glycine. Incidentally NAC is very sour, and smells of sulphur! I take about 3000-5000mg/day, finding it invaluable, it's a potent antioxidant in it's own right. Wonderful for hair, skin and nails too. I'm so used to the taste and smell I don't mind it. I'm surprised you've been given the benzo for so long, it's normally only used for short term help, ie 2 weeks. It's highly addictive, although I have helped people come off it, using just the amino acids. Melatonin is our sleep hormone, but oddly enough I've found tryptophan, the amino acid precursor better. This is first converted to serotonin, so there's double benefit, before conversion to melatonin. There's info on how to take this on the same page as the tyrosine. Finally, please have a vitamin D test done. A lack of this influences every cell, causing it to malfunction. It also reduces the benefits of progesterone. Tyrosine hydroxylase is the rate-limiting enzyme for production of the brain's monoamines, two of which are serotonin and dopamine. Vitamin D increases levels of tyrosine hydroxylase. For more info see the Vitamin D Council and GrassrootsHealth websites. Take care Wray
Jul 06, 2011
 How much
by: Wray

Hi Annette So interesting about the 70 year old woman needing 300mg/day! Please keep adding your comments, I find them invaluable! Take care Wray
Jul 07, 2011
 Reply
by: Karen

Hi Annette and Wray,
Thank you for the info about your friend. That is so encouraging. Yes, I use Natpro and I only use about a dollop. How does one put as much progesterone on as your friend does using the Natpro? I am 5?2? and weigh about 100 pounds. There is just not enough room to put that much on. If I had a natural compounded pharmacy make a stronger dose for me, what should the progesterone be made from and is there any ingredient I should be careful is not put in it?

Also, I am confused. I was told that as you age, you estrogen decreases and you need more. Wouldn?t that mean that progesterone throws your balance of estrogen and progesterone off? When you say go slowly, how exactly do you do that and over what time frame?

I am only taking the .25 mg of Klonopin right now but since I have been on a benzo for so long, I?ll have to do it slowly. Do you know what slowly means?

I take 5000 IUs of Vit D but haven?t had my levels checked in a bit. Will need to do that. Of the supplements/progesterone dosage change you mentioned, could you tell me what to start with? My body is extremely sensitive to changes and I would need to do one thing at a time so I can make sure I am not getting a reaction.

Is there any danger with taking tryptophan? Like can you take too much and cause a serotonin overload? I would never go above the recommended dose but I just want to make sure since it sounds like it is a drug. I did try melatonin at a very low dose (3 mg) and it made me groggy so I agree with your comment about melatonin. Plus, I still woke up at 3 am. Does the tryptophan keep you asleep? Do you know if its ok to take it with a benzo?

Lastly, my cycle runs anywhere from 18 to 22 days so if I start increasing the dose how do I determine the right day to start it?


Thanks for your help and for this wonderful site. I will keep you posted.

Karen
Jul 07, 2011
 Ativan
by: Anonymous

I take Ativan too for sleep and have difficulty sleeping. I would like to get off it also. I used the natpro crema and then switched to a 200 mg formula that was compounded at the pharmacy. None of these helped me sleep through the night. So I am thinkign it could be the Ativan. But I am not sure how to wean off of it. Any advice?
Jul 08, 2011
 Reply
by: Wray

Hi Karen It's easy to use more cream, even if you're small. My daughter is only 5' and uses about 170mg/day, which is about 1tsp. I use the same amount and I'm 5'3". It should always be used a minimum of twice a day, but can be used hourly if symptoms are severe. I occasionally give myself a top up of 2tsp per day, and have no problem getting in on. It's so difficult to tell you what to avoid if you have a pharmacy make it for you. They generally use a mineral oil as the base, because it's cheaper. They will also use a synthetic preservative too. And probably a PEG (polyethylene glycol) emulsifier which should also be avoided. We are told oestrogen decreases, makes money for the drug companies! Oestradiol does decrease, it should, but oestrone increases. We make it in our fat cells to the day we die, however few or many we have. And the menopausal ovary is an androgen secreting organ, see here. For a menopausal woman, this is even more significant than oestrogen, as it causes visceral fat to be deposited, particularly on the stomach area. Hence the middle age spread! It also increases the chance of getting heart disease and cancer. As for slowly, follow your symptoms, ie how you're feeling. If you still have any, it's evident you're not using enough. Some women have to use high amounts to achieve results. You might like to see these comments, one of which is from Annette, see here, here, here and here. The same applies for the benzo drug, please see this page we have on Natural Antidepressants. I've run out of space, so will start a new comment below. Take care Wray
Jul 08, 2011
 Reply
by: Wray

Hi Karen You're taking a good dose of vitamin D, but it would be worth getting a test done. It's too difficult to tell you which supps to start with, we're all so different, I have no way of telling how you will react. But as all the supps I've given you are amino acids, found in our food, they are very safe. If you look through the info I've given on our natural antidepressants page, you'll see the amount of tryp I suggest to begin with. I've found there is no danger of serotonin syndrome if following this. And it is a question of experimenting, as I said on the natural antidepressants page, if you wake in the night, have another dose ready by your bed. The cycle needs to be broken, plus giving you the missing nutrients. I forgot to mention that the B vitamin inositol is also helpful for sleep. The dose varies between 500-4000mg/day, I take the 4000mg daily. Your cycle is erratic, the average is 20 days, which means you should start the cream on day 6, and use it for the next 14 days. Alternatively you could try using the progesterone daily, ignoring any bleeding, and do this for 2-3 months. After you feel stable, you can regulate the cycle by using progesterone as detailed above. Bless you for the kind words! Take care Wray
Jul 08, 2011
 Ativan
by: Wray

Hi there Yes Ativan can cause sleep disturbances, and more. As I said to Karen above, the cycle has to be broken. I don't know how long you used the progesterone for, but it's not a quick fix for most people. You might like to look through all the info I gave Karen, and see if any of the nutrients I suggested to her would help you. We do have more info on How to use progesterone cream. Take care Wray
Jul 09, 2011
 Re: Ativan
by: Anonymous

Thanks Wray. When you said you helped people get off Ativan using amino acids, I don't understand which ones are the amino acids. Could you clarify for me. Also, I found out that you can have a compounding pharmacy gradually decrease your dosage of ativan so that you can go very slowly and not have withdrawal symptoms. Would you suggest that or doign the one day off 7 days on etc. I am afraid it will shock my system to completely not take it one night and it will make my sleep worse. Do you have any thoughts about that? Thanks also for the info about how to use the Natpro. I will go back to it and report back to you.
Jul 09, 2011
 Re:
by: Karen

I just want to clarify. When say your daughter uses a tsp, would that be one tsp twice a day? In addition, if you apply 2 tsp one day and you don?t keep up at that level wont it cause anxiety? I am so nervous about using the same amount each day. In regards to the tryptophan, the bottle I bought says to use one for every 50 lbs of body weight. Each pill is 500 mg. If I am around 100 lbs does that mean I can only use 1000 mgs? Your maximum allowable dosage was much higher so I just want to make sure. And I assume one should only take it at night? I took one 500 mg pill and slept til 4:40 am. I think this would be too late to take another one but am not sure how it works. Should I give it some more time before adding another dose (like does it take time to build up in your body to be effective for sleep)? How long is it ok to be on tryptophan like just months or is a year ok or 2 years, do you have to wean off and do you have to take a break every so often? Would I get withdrawal symptoms from going off it?
I cant tell..when you refer to amino acids..are they the natural antidepressants you"re referring to and are they what you typically have a person take while they are withdrawing from a benzo?
If I start the cream on day 6, would day 1 be the first day of my period? And if I get my period before the 14 days are up, do I still continue with the cream?
Lastly I wasn?t sure what you meant by this statement, ?The same applies for the benzo drug, please see this page we have on Natural Antidepressants.? Could you clarify? Thanks again. I went up in my progesterone dose and already feel better. Hoping tonight will be a better night?s sleep!!
Jul 11, 2011
 Tryptophan
by: Karen

I have been taking 500 mg of the Tryptophan at night with the .25 mg Klonopin. I have been waking up anywhere between 4 and 4:30. I am not sure if that means I should take more at bedtime and then that will allow me to sleep longer or take a second dose when I wake up to sleep longer. Could you let me know your thoughts.

I also increased the Progesterone. Does it help to use more at night? Or what about when I wake up...should I put more on then and how much if so?

Thank you, Karen
Jul 14, 2011
 Re:
by: Wray

Hi Karen The 170mg/day or 1tsp is the total daily amount. I've not found using 2tsp or more and then reducing slowly causes any problems, the trick is always to reduce the amount slowly. The tryp is best started off using only 250mg/day, so you would have to split the dose. It is essential to take it as I've described on the Anxiety page I gave you. It doesn't work as well if you don't, in fact some people find it doesn't work at all. And it is safe to go as high as 6000mg/day, irrespective of weight. Like progesterone, it's not size, or age that matters, but symptoms. Although I've rarely found people need to go that high. It's best taken at night, as it can make you drowsy during the day if taken in the morning. I can't tell you if taking it at 4.30 would be too late, you would have to try this over a weekend when it doesn't matter about getting up for work. And yes it does take time to work, mostly quite quickly, but one woman found it took her 6 months before it really helped. As tryp is an amino acid and therefore found in protein, I've not found anyone gets withdrawal symptoms or could possibly get addicted to it. Weaning is always a good idea, but you'll find you'll probably need to do that anyway, as you'll find the high doses keep you asleep for too long. I've also not heard of anyone needing to take it as long as a year or two. Tryp and tyrosine are natural anti-depressants. The SSRI's keep serotonin circulating, and the drugs like Wellbutrin keep dopamine circulating. Progesterone does the same. Vitamin D is another anti-depresant, so are the vitamins B3 and inositol. Day 1 is the first day of the period. If you get a proper period, then stop the cream, if its only spotting continue with it until bleeding starts. So pleased the higher amount helped you! I meant by same applies to the benzo drug, as it does to the other drugs, ie take the aminos and reduce slowly. But I see the comment above says you can get a pharmacy to make reducing doses, such an excellent idea. Please try to find one which can do this for you. Take care Wray
Jul 14, 2011
 Re: Ativan
by: Wray

Hi there The aminos to use are the tryptophan and tyrosine. I see you've seen the page on how to reduce slowly. But how much better it would be if you could get a pharmacy to give you reduced doses. That's excellent news. But make sure it's over a few months, as outlined on our page on how to reduce slowly. Please, please have a vitamin D test done, a lack of this impacts on sleep, it could be this is all you need. For more info see the Vitamin D Council and GrassrootsHealth websites. And if you live in the UK see Birmingham Hospital. And it does help me help others if you report back, thanks! Take care Wray
Jul 14, 2011
 Tryptophan
by: Wray

Hi Karen I did suggest starting on 250mg/day tryp, but if you are finding the 500mg is not too much to start with, keep taking this. I don't think you should increase the amount until you've been on it a week, this gives you time to adjust. Try taking 250mg for your second dose when you wake, this shouldn't keep you asleep too long. Or alternatively try the higher dose over the weekend. Only when you are sleeping through the night should you attempt to reduce the Klonopin, and then do so very slowly. Progesterone does help sleep, as that paper I gave you said. So using more at night would be a good idea, and putting it on when you wake too. I'm not sure how much you're currently using, but as it's so safe it really doesn't matter how much you apply. Try the same amount you used before bed. Let me know how you get on too. Take care Wray
Jul 15, 2011
 Tryptophan
by: Anonymous

I've been following this thread and it's so interesting. I went out and bought tryptophan but I couldn't find 250 mg anywhere. So I took 1 500 mg pill before bed for like two nights. it didnt seem to be enough so I added a second. Now I read on your post that tryptophan doesnt work as well if you dont start on 250 mg and wait a week before adding more. What should I do now? Should I go backwards?
Jul 15, 2011
 Progesterone
by: Karen

Ok, thank you Wray. Unfortunately I already reduced my dose of Klonpin at the same time that I took the Tyrptophan. Should I go back up? Will the tryptophan not work if I already lowered the dose?

I was told tryptophan needs darkness to make you sleepy and that if you take it in the morning it will brigthen your spirits because of the sun. But I'm following your advice and starting it at night. I was just asking about the morning because I do have mild depression. Also, it's confusing.

I went to use my tube of Natpro and it is separated..like a little watery/runny. Is this ok?

I'll keep you posted. Again, I cant thank you enough. If I lived near you, I'd lvoe to have you as my doctor. Your knowledge is such a blessing. Here's to better health!!
Jul 26, 2011
 Vit D
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray,
I had my Vit D level checked and it is 46. Is this ok?
Aug 05, 2011
 Tryptophan
by: Wray

Hi there No need to go backwards, but did you take it with a small amount of carb such as 1/2 tsp honey, or fruit juice? And did you take it with B6, as it needs both these to work. I only suggest starting on 250mg/night as this helps most people. It can have an adverse reaction if too much is taken in the early days, evidently it didn't do this to you. It can take time to work too, it depends as most things do, on the symptoms. If bad then it can take months, not to put you off, but to ask you to persevere. Take care Wray
Aug 05, 2011
 Progesterone
by: Wray

Hi Karen It's not a problem reducing the Klonpin at the same time as starting the tryp. Just in some people in can cause an adverse reaction. Obviously not with you! Melatonin is our sleep hormone, and that needs darkness. It's made from tryp, so it's best to take the tryp at night, to raise melatonin levels. I've found in most people, if they take the tryp in the morning, it makes them too sleepy. You mention mild depression, this should go taking the tryp, how long it will take I don't know. Serotonin is made from tryp too. In fact tryp is first converted into 5 HTP, then into serotonin or B3 and then into melatonin. It's up to the body to decide which is most important, more serotonin or more melatonin! Have you tried adding B3? This might be an idea. You say 'asking about the morning because I do have mild depression', does the depression occur in the morning only? If so your blood glucose is dropping too low overnight. Try taking 4000-8000mg glutamine to prevent this occurring. But do take it away from the tryp, as it will shunt the tryp to the side, and it won't work. Maybe an hour or two before taking the tryp. Re the separating Natpro, many apologies, we've had a batch where this did occur. We always replace the faulty tubes, please send a message via this link here. Please give your order number, failing that your address. Bless you for the kind words! Take care Wray
Aug 05, 2011
 Vit D
by: Wray

Hi there 46 is too low, whether it's been done in ng/ml or nmol/L. In fact if in nmol/L it's far too low. The level should be 70-100ng/ml or 170nmol/L to 250nmol/L. See the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital websites for more info. Take care Wray
Aug 16, 2011
 B Vitamins
by: Anonymous

Wray, I have always gotten a racing heart from B vitamins so I am not sure what to do in regards to the Tryptophan. I bought Tryptophan complete by Lidtke Technologies, It contains B vitamins and I woke up with palpitations. Have you had patients who have had this problem and what do you advise?

How much Vitamin D do you advise I take if my level is 46 and should i take it with anything else?

Wray, when I wake up I notice depression with anxiety. Could this be from low blood sugar? As the day goes on I notice apathy or malaise but I cant use anything stimulating like B vitamins or I get palpitations and have more difficulty with the sleep. When you say you can reduce the progesterone cream slowly..what exactly is slowly and when should you do it? I am using it the 14 days before my period.
Aug 19, 2011
 B Vitamins
by: Wray

Hi there The B vitamins can cause problems in some people, but as they're essential, I would always say there is something else going on to cause problems. But what? Palpitations can be caused by low blood glucose. If you wake with Anxiety it could well indicate blood glucose dropping overnight. I suggest you try take 4000-8000mg/night glutamine, and see if that helps you. Glutamine can be converted it into glucose by the body, but being an amnio acid the conversion occurs very slowly. The minimum dose for vitamin D should be 5000iu's per day, magnesium is the most important co-factor, and is often low in our soils. Vitamin K too, but if you eat plenty of green leaves, this shouldn't be a problem. The good gut bacteria also make it. Boron is another co-factor. I don't know why you want to reduce the progesterone, as I don't know how much you are using. But if you are feeling stable on your current level, reduce by no more than 15-30mg at any one time. Stay on that amount until you feel ready to reduce again. There's more info on our page How to use progesterone cream. Take care Wray
Oct 12, 2011
 Valerian Root
by: Karen

Hi Wray,
Thank you, I went to the drug store to get glutamine and they told me chromium picolinate works much better. I thought I'd confirm with you before buying one.

In addition when i went to get the tryptophan they told me to get valerian root and take 1 450 mg pill at night. they said it will take time to build up in my system. can you tell me your thoughts about that too?

Lastly, I was only going to lower the progesterone because the doctor said he wanted to check my levels and said he can't while I'm on the progesterone.

Can you tell me if it matters what kind of Vitamin D I buy or what kind of magnesium I buy? There are so many forms. Thanks so much!!
Oct 18, 2011
 Valerian Root
by: Wray

Hi Karen The chrome doesn't 'work' better, they both have such different roles in the body I don't know how they can say that! Glutamine is an amino acid, it can be broken down very slowly into glucose, chrome cannot. Chrome comprises part of the glucose tolerance factor (GTF), which also needs vitamin B3, glycine, cysteine and glutamine. Chrome is needed for the metabolism of protein, but also for glucose, and is involved as a cellular receptor for insulin. Interestingly the B vitamin biotin stabilises blood sugar and eliminates cravings for carbohydrates, in some instances better than chromium. Glutamine on the other hand builds and maintains muscles, where it is found in large amounts. If blood sugar drops too low it can be used in place of glucose, as it can readily pass the blood brain barrier. Because of this, it stabilises blood sugar, eliminating cravings for sweets, starches and alcohol in as little as 48 hours. It helps with mental function, it's the principal fuel for the immune system and digestive tract, preventing leaky gut by healing the lining, including ulcers. During stress large amounts of glutamine are lost, leading to loss of muscle, of great importance in trauma and surgery. It's a precursor to glutathione, one of the most important antioxidants in the body. This is the reason I suggested glutamine, as it can stabilise blood glucose. Valerian is a good sleep aid, but it's not a necessary part of the body's composition, whereas tryptophan is. It's an essential amino acid, but found in very small amounts in food, levels drop when stressed. If your doctor wants a baseline to check your hormones, then you should go off the progesterone for at least a week, if not longer. Always buy natural vitamin D3, not D2, there are also analogues on the market which you should avoid, as they are synthetic. I've found chelated minerals are the best. Take care Wray
Oct 18, 2011
 Tryptophan
by: Karen

Wray,
I am starting all over again. I found 300 mg tabs of Tryptophan. I took that with the 450 mg of the Valerian Root since the health food store recommended that. I tend to get stimulated by B vitamins so I drank a small amount of fruit juice instead. Is this ok?
Oct 21, 2011
 Tryptophan
by: Wray

Hi Karen Let me know how you get on, you might need more tryp, but raise it slowly if you find it doesn't help at that level. The tryp needs the co-factors B6 and folic acid, it doesn't work as well without. In some cases not at all. It also needs a small amount of carb to get it into the brain, so the fruit juice is needed and the co-factors. Take care Wray
Nov 01, 2011
 Lyme
by: Karen

Hi Wray,
A complicating factor is I was diagnosed with neurolyme. I dont have any pain. Do you have any recommendations in this area?

I am taking 4000 mg L-glutamine an hour before bed like you said. I wanted to ask how much Vit B6 and folic acid is needed to take with the tyrptophan.

I am also taking Magnesium Citrate before I go to bed because of the fact that I take the 5,000 IUs of Vit D3 and because I was told it helps with sleep. How do I determine how much of the Magnesium to take?

Osteoporosis runs in my family. Do you have any suggestions on how much Calcium and what kind to take?

Lastly, my doctor has me taking two supplements: NorLox and Avipaxin. It looks like they have Acetyl-L-Carninitine and Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline in them. Is Acetyl-L-Carnitine and Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline helpful?

Lastly, I am taking 2,000 mg Vit C with Rose Hips in them. Is this ok?

The doctor also wants me to take 5 mg Adderrall to help increase my dopamine. Another person told me they took DLPA instead. Do you have any experience with either?

I will keep you posted. Thanks so much for your help.
Oct 24, 2012
 B Vitamins
by: Casey

I too would have anxiety/panic attacks when waking in the morning....or sometimes in the middle of the night. For me, it was because my blood sugar dropped at night. Now, I drink a protein shake or eat a little something (like a piece of turkey or something) every night before I go to bed. I sleep better and have not woken up with any anxiety/panic attacks since. Along with with improving my diet and taking a few supplements this is now something I don't worry about anymore. Keep researching and be open to experimenting...every body is different. Best of health to you! Casey
Oct 25, 2012
 B Vitamins
by: Wray

Hi Casey I'm delighted to hear you eat some protein at night. I'm forever telling people to avoid any sweet or starchy foods at night, as often the problem is nothing more than a drop in blood glucose. This causes adrenaline to be secreted to bring the glucose up. It does this by stimulating the liver to convert glycogen, our stored sugar, into glucose. But often too much adrenaline is secreted, this will cause panic attacks, plus a tightened chest and problems breathing. Which doesn't help! We have more info about this on our Anxiety page. Glutamine taken at night can help, as it's one of the proteins which can be converted into glucose. But being a protein this only occurs slowly. About 4000-8000mg per dose. Take care Wray
Dec 11, 2016
 Insomnia returns
by: Susanne

Hi Wray I recently started on progesterone cream. I got about four nights of blissful sleep on about 400 mg. Then it stopped working and back to little sleep! Any idea why?

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