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Estrogen metabolites

by Alison
(SC)

Hi Wray,

I've never felt well since beginning the progesterone in March as you know. This is Alison. Anyhow, I started again in May at the 100-200mg amount cream and by June, I was insane.
I had a test done by genova diagnostics called complete hormones.

My estrogen metabolites were very high-not methylating well!
Estradiol, estriol and estrone were at lowest end of range-like none.
My dhea was high
My Progesterone was off the charts!

New doctor put me on 2-5mg prog crm. and .025-.05mg ESTRADIOL!
Daily dosing btw. no cycling.
Been 3 months and feel like hell! Can barely tolerate either at this point. Lots of flushing without the estradiol and belly pains like heat with it. Honestly, I can't tell which is doing that although the prog. has done that in the past.

As usual, I'm told to figure it out on my own-the dosing. I wish i never set foot on this path. It has been a year.

How do i get off the estradiol?

I'm scared as can be to start 100-200mg again and I have no idea how estrogen metabolite-the bad ones-and low estradiol should be interpreted...is this estrogen dominance????Please tell me.

I just took a test from zrt-cortisol(4) plus estradiol and prog, dhea,testosterone.

Perhaps you can help me figure this out when i get the results back in a couple of days.

Vit. D good, ferritin a little low and thyroid seems okay.

I know the questions are scattered but please try to help out. I'm way scattered. omg!

Alison

Comments for Estrogen metabolites

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Nov 13, 2012
 Estrogens
by: Jane

Whew, your story sounds terrible and similar to mine. I have been going nuts for 7 years with this stuff. Go to www.womhoo.com and learn what he has to say. I put what he says and Wray's comments together and am coming up with a different approach than drs who keep putting me on estradiol patches for 7 years and the hot flashes never went away. The guy on womhoo says go 1 or 2 mo. and change your laundry det, cosmetics, and no essential oils and he has a list of stuff to stay away from if you are putting it on your skin, it absorbs very quickly. I think we flat need to get off the estradiols, watch detergents etc and then start some good progesterone cream with no junk in it. This guy puts only coconut oil with his. My last dr took me cold turkey off horms I'd been on 7 yrs because he tried to put me on the oral prog. and it gives me severe headaches. I wonder what solvent toxin is in there to do that. The crash off was terrible. I took a few days off and got strict about detergent and no essential oils etc, then started slathering on some good progesterone cream (make sure it doesn't have toxins or mineral oil in it--just got some from pharmacy that said propolene glycol!) every time I have a hot flash. I think I'm just now starting to come around. It has been 7 years of murder!!! No sleeping and hot flashes about every hour 24/7. It's worth ordering from Dr. Eckhart to get the sheet of listed things to avoid. My progesterone too was off the charts with GEnova's metabolite testing. The drs didn't seem to know what to do. Also I have genetic meythlation problem. I'm thinking we need to get very strict about getting off all estrogen like (xenoestrogen) stuff.
Nov 14, 2012
 Estrogen Metabolites
by: Carol K

Please use Wray's Natpro Progesterone and take any advice she gives you. You don't need anything else but NATPRO. Do NOT use any form of Estrogen. Not all Progesterone is the same. Wray's product is the BEST!!!
Nov 14, 2012
 Thank you so much
by: alison

Hi

Thank you so much!!!!I saw this site a year ago and seriously wondered about it! I looked at it again and ordered some and have also been considering iodine and iodide--as i have normal thyroid testing results but very hypo---omg! Eckhart does say that estro dom. blocks thyroid hormones from doing their job. Also, I've been so broke lately trying to figure all this out with the doctors and supps that i bought a bunch of cheap cleansers and laundry soap. In the trash definitely. And I was doing a candida cleanse with tea tree oil in it! I can't believe this!!!! Also, I have to call my compounders and find out the ingredients in the creams- I have a lot of work to do! How are you getting along now?

Did you stop estradiol cold turkey?
How long did it take for you to notice good effects from progestelle?
Is All Detergent okay to use?

I'd love to hear from you again!!!

alison
Nov 14, 2012
 how much? and methylation?
by: alison

Hi again,

What are you doing for your methylation? I have that problem too.

What is your dose on progestelle? During the month say during your period and the first two weeks?

Have you had stomach problems? I have burning sensations and low stomach acid and i'm sure its related to the fluoride t-paste that i started using two months ago!!!

Alison
Nov 14, 2012
 Estrogen metabolites
by: Wray

Hi Alison I'm sorry you're still struggling. I'm puzzled you say your oestrogen metabolites are high, but all three oestrogens are very low. You can't have a metabolite without it's precursor. The same applies to progesterone, if that's low so will it's metabolites be. And off the charts, how high was it? As it can go up to 100,000pg/ml, see here. Levels in the region of 3000pg/ml plus are found in the Saliva Tests we run. 2-5mg progesterone is laughable! And no woman needs more oestrogen, we already have too much. Over 100 oestrogen mimics are now found the world over, see Our Stolen Future. It's best to reduce the oestrogen slowly, we have more info about this on our page Coming off HRT, the Pill etc. It would help me if I had the results, did Genova not give them to you? If not then we'll have to wait for the ZRT results. In the meantime you could look through our page on Hormone Testing. And how good is your vitamin D, do you have the results? Are your levels between 70-100ng/ml? Too low a level will cause depression. I said this to you previously, and I'm saying it again, the 100-200mg/day is far too low for you. You should be using no less than 400mg/day, maybe more. Anything less will make you insane. There are many women using this level and more, see here, here, here, here and here. Did you try any of the nutrients on the Anxiety page? Did you have your copper tested? We discussed this before, and if you recall Wendy had high levels, contributing to her anxiety, depression etc. Too high a level also causes psychosis. Continued below
Nov 14, 2012
 Estrogen metabolites Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Alison If you feel progesterone can help, it's pointless playing around with low amounts. The more severe the symptoms, the greater the number, the more progesterone will be needed. Low levels of allopregnanolone, the most important and most powerful metabolite of progesterone is low in PMS, see here. Did anyone test your calcium/magnesium levels? A high ratio of calcium to magnesium causes depression, it also upset blood glucose too. High testosterone causes severe PMS symptoms. If bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) testosterone becomes inactive, progesterone raises levels of SHBG, see here, so preventing the rise of free testosterone. You'll notice levels of 1200mg/day were given to the patients. SHBG drops if sugars are eaten, even those found in all grains, legumes, dairy and sweet starchy fruits and vegetables. Fructose, sucrose and glucose, reduce SHBG by 80, 50 and 40% respectively, see here. Thereby allowing testosterone to rise. It's best to avoid all the foods and sugars mentioned. Wine and beers contain carbs, so it's best to avoid those too. Sugars and large meals also drop progesterone levels, which means SHBG also drops, another vicious cycle. If you wish to wait for the test results, before increasing the progesterone, that's fine. The results will hopefully show what's in excess, what's too low and the ratios. Take care Wray
Nov 15, 2012
 Estrogens
by: Wray

Hi Jane Thanks for using some of my suggestions! I'm relieved you're off the oestradiol, it must have had a progestin in too, unless you've had a hysterectomy? I'm not in favour of any oestrogen, least of all HRT. Which they're now calling HT, and saying women can start using it again, no need to be concerned! As if a change in name makes it safe. I've found for Hot Flushes 400mg/day or more is needed to stop them, using it hourly if need be. Adding the amino acid GABA can help if they persist. Many of the detergents are toxic, luckily now there are several non toxic brands on the market. It's interesting the oral progesterone caused headaches, this doesn't surprise me. Most of it is destroyed... "The liver and gut region removed a mean of 96 per cent of the progesterone entering these tissues" see here. This can cause severe Oestrogen Dominance, as what little progesterone there is is stimulating oestrogen. So it wasn't a toxic solvent, only oestrogen being stimulated. Although many caps contain peanut oil, so if you're allergic to that, it could be a reason. Essential oils are fine, we've used them for hundreds of years with no ill effects. Besides the amount of oil one would use is minute, therefore the amount of oestrogen you would be getting would be infinitesimal. The thing that does concern me is the food we consume in large quantities, all of it contains phytoestrogens, see here, here and here. These papers here and here, on infertility in sheep, show how a high level of phytoestrogens in food can affect the reproductive organs. So grains and legumes should be avoided, nuts, seeds and oils have the highest content, but we don't consume such large amounts of these. The lists found on the links I've given you are all free. As are all the oestrogen mimics given on the website Our Stolen Future. Continued below
Nov 15, 2012
 Estrogens Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Jane Contamination of endocrine disruptors (EDC's ) is very widespread. They are found in our food, water, air and the skin 'care' we all use, particularly sunscreens. Two more excellent sites are EWG and Skin Deep. Initially the work was on oestrogen mimics, but within the last five years other chemicals have been discovered that affect hormone signalling systems.... thyroid, progesterone, retinoids, glucocorticoids, oestrogen blockers, androgen blockers and progesterone blockers. The most vulnerable to these disruptors are foetuses. For instance it's been found that oestrogen mimics while the male foetus is developing, lead to enlarged and hypersensitive prostates when an adult. PCB's are potent oestrogen mimics, there is increasing instances of feminised males, intersex babies and children born with both sets of reproductive organs. Some of the compounds are so universally used they are impossible to escape...

Nonylphenol is a surfactant found in detergents, pesticides and some plastics
Bisphenol-A is found in polycarbonate plastics, in babies bottles and as a surfactant in pesticides
Phthalates are added to PVC to make it flexible. PVC is used for children's toys and medical devices
Dioxins are byproducts created in the manufacture of other chemicals, and some of the most toxic substances known to man. Ubiquitous in the environment, they do not biodegrade and are known to cause birth defects and tumours and to damage the immune system, the liver and the blood
PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) were used as insulating fluids, in plastics, pesticides, flame retardants and more. Although banned, they still persist in the environment, being very stable compounds
DDT was a widely used pesticide before it's partial ban in 1972. It is a genotoxic, neurotoxic endocrine disruptor, causing cancer, problems with semen, menstruation, gestation and lactation
PBDEs (polybrominated diethyl ethers) are flame retardants and have been found to be steroid and thyroid disruptors. They are ubiquitous throughout the world, including ocean life
Plant oestrogens, although found naturally in our diets, also affect us. For instance those found in soy are known to reduce sperm counts in men eating it, and to affect memory too.
Many metals are now being found to have oestrogen mimicking properties, uranium, arsenic, cadmium, lead and mercury. Continued below
Nov 15, 2012
 Estrogens Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Jane Not a happy state of affairs, but it remains up to us to live as cleanly as we can. Making sure we have the optimal supply of nutrients to assist, no longer does food contain enough. A study was done testing the efficacy of various carriers for progesterone, an oil, a gel or an emulsion, see here. You'll notice the emulsion won hands down, peak level of progesterone was 2.6ng/ml for the emulsion, as opposed to 1ng/ml for the oil. The recommendation to use one container per month, would give a person about 26mg/day progesterone, enough to stimulate oestrogen. Methylation plays a critical role in the regulation of gene expression, so too does both Progesterone and Vitamin D. A gene can express itself in many ways, the idea is to get it to express in a beneficial, not a harmful way. I'll leave you to read Dr Hyman's explanation, as I've already given you too much! He practices functional medicine, and we have a video on our site you might like to watch, see here. I don't agree with his recommendations to eat whole grains, in view of what I said above. No human was designed to eat grains. More about that on the Paleo Diet website, the link can be found on our Nutrition page. Take care Wray
Nov 15, 2012
 Thanks
by: Alison

Hi Wray!!!!

So good to hear from you again.

I have the genova test. It is FMV-urine and the test is crazy confusing!

But I took it in May and I will have my zrt test results back on this Monday so they will be more up to date.

The genova test results---

Anabolic/Catabolic Balance(17 Ketosteroids/17Hydroxysteroids Ratio) .59 (1.00-3.86 range)

Estrogen Metabolism (2-Hydroxyestrone/16a-Hydroxyestrone Ratio) 1.6
(1.7-2.8 range)

Methylation Activity (2-Methoxyestrone/2 Hydroxyestrone Ratio) .12
(greater than or equal to .09 range)

5a-Reductase Activity 1.33
(.34-1.76 range)

11 Beta-HSD Index .24
(.63-1.37 range)

Pregnanediol 645 (13-370 nmol/dL range)

Estrone 5.0 (3-52 range)

Estradiol 1.3 (1-17 mcg/g Creat. range)

Estriol .9 mcg/g Creat. (9-60 range)

WOW! That should be it.

Protocol was Brocollide, Methionine, aminos, fish oils, gaba, and the doses of progesterone and estradiol given in previous post.

Also did cipro for klebsiella in Aug.-bout killed me! and Nystatin and herbal anti-fungals. Since then belly has been a mess and possible gallbladder pain again-having a hida scan done and seeing a gastro. Boy this all sounds so bad! Anyhow I've been having the abdominal unrest since March as you know and the cleanses worked for a while but pain comes and goes-like a bloating pain. Anyhow, hopefully I'll get some clues soon as to what 'it' is there bugging me.

So, if you have any clues, let me know!

Thanks in advance, Alison
Nov 15, 2012
 my zrt test
by: Alison

Hi Wray!

Got my test-

estradiol 1.3
prog 298
ratio 229
testosterone 38
dhea 4.2
am cortisol 6.7
noon cortisol 2.9
evening cortisol .8
night cortisol .4

there it is. interesting cause my anxiety will kick in everyday by noon. when i took this test i was using 20-40mg prog a day and .o25 to .05 estradiol. I take no dhea. I was coming off of adrenal glandulars by standard process.

Hmmm. I don't know how to explain the belly pangs pangs pangs on the flanks of my upper abdomen-is this what it feels like to be bloated???? Cause i am.

Yes Wray, I did get my bloodwork back and my D is only 53 and my ferritin is 58-haha normal? No it's low i know!

Haven't done copper yet-sort of broke for a bit and i take mag and not calcium.

Any ideas? probably bump up the prog again? I have to do this slowly though because i freak out. Also I'm ordering a cleaner cream as this compounded one makes me itch like crazy sometimes.

What about estrogen? I'm 41-is that low? 1.3?

It was 2.1 a year ago...Can't wait to hear from you!

Alison
Nov 17, 2012
 Thanks
by: Wray

Hi Alison I'm delighted but surprised you're pleased to hear from me again! As I will keep telling you you are not using enough progesterone. Please whatever you do do not increase the progesterone slowly, this will just keep stimulating oestrogen. It must be a large amount immediately. This page here is worth looking through. Mateja has asthma. I know progesterone helps this, but I was overly cautious with her, as it can exacerbate it initially. The last thing I needed was her being rushed to the hospital with an asthma attack. I should have told her to go very high immediately, but I didn't. She continued having asthma attacks and put on even more weight. I explained my position to her, she was under a doctors care and I don't like to interfere, particularly with something like asthma. Once she realised this, she said she was going it alone as the doctors hadn't help her at all, plus she'd read all the papers I'd given her which had convinced her of it's benefits. So I then told her to increase the amount to 500mg/day, and it worked. She stopped getting the asthma attacks, didn't need her inhaler and stopped putting on weight. I have no experience with the Anabolic/Catabolic Balance so can't advise there. But the Estrogen Metabolism is easy enough to change. Your ratio was only slightly low, but I suggest you take DIM. This is regarded as an anti-oestrogen. Oestrogen is broken down into 2 principle metabolites, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1) and 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1). 16alpha-OHE1 is regarded as a potent oestrogen, whereas 2-OHE1 is a weaker oestrogen. In some studies DIM (3,3'-Diindolylmethane) increased levels of 2-OHE1, by doing so it also increases the ratio of 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1. This increased ratio is associated with a lower risk for breast cancer in some studies, not in others. It appears to have a positive affect on pancreatic, thyroid, prostate and gastric cancers too, and leukemia. The precursor to DIM is Indole 3 Carbinol (I3C) which also has antioxidant and anti-cancer properties. These are a selection of papers here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Continued below
Nov 17, 2012
 Thanks part 2
by: Wray

Hi Alison And more here, here, here, here, here and here Your methylation seems fine at 0.12, as the range is greater than or equal to 0.09 range, and yours is greater. But I gave Jane that link to Dr Hyman's info on methylation, so maybe you could read through that, and take the B vitamins he suggests. It seems you're breaking down progesterone very quickly, as pregnanediol is an inactive end product of progesterone metabolism found in the urine. Why this should be so I have no idea. Your oestradiol lies in the normal range which is 1.3-3.3 pg/ml. But this is not the critical factor, it's the P:E2 ratio which is, and yours is only 229:1. We've found from Saliva Tests that it's best if it's 600:1 and over. Your testosterone lies in the normal range, your cortisol goes up and down as it should. Always highest in the morning, lowest at night. What do you eat for breakfast? A sharp drop in blood glucose can send us into severe anxiety. I had one women forever phoning me after she'd eaten a meal, she was always in tears. I kept telling her she was eating too many carbs and sugars, even the so called good foods like whole grain breads convert too quickly to glucose. Unknown to me she was also taking a cal/mag complex for her bones, her ratio of Ca:Mg was off the charts. This also upsets blood glucose and causes depression and anxiety. You say you are only taking Mg, I'm relieved, but please look at the carbs you eat. And please supplement with the vitamin D as a low level of this reduces the benefits of progesterone and causes depression, see here, here, here, here, here. and here. Continued below
Nov 17, 2012
 Thanks Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Alison Gut dysbiosis causes untold troubles. I know you've been trying to correct it, but please have a look at this site here. Finally you say your current cream is causing you to itch, please look at the cream we make. We only use natural ingredients, and try to keep the cost down too, see here. The page gives you all the ingredients we use. Take care Wray

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